“Because I have built a business and I am successful and I am a really happy positive person, so that when I talk about this thing, people don’t really understand where I’m coming from. Or it’s like yeah, but you’re fine.”
Today’s guest is Laura Joseph, the Founder of Paper & Honey, an heirloom wedding stationary and letterpress studio. In today’s episode, we get to learn about how Laura started her stationary and letterpress business. I know next to nothing about stationary, so it was really interesting for me to learn more about her business. I think one of the most fascinating parts of the discussion is hearing about the letterpress machines that she has. These are machines that are over a 100-years-old. We talk a little bit about what went into adding that into our business, the process, and by process, that’s probably an understatement of researching, acquiring, transporting and maintaining those machines.
One of the most important parts of the episode, however, is a discussion that we have about mental health in the latter half of the conversation. Laura opens up about her journey with depression, anxiety and ADHD, how that’s impacted her business and what she’s done to deal with those things. I really, really appreciate Laura sharing about this, because I think it’s something that so many of us deal with, but often don’t talk about. I hope people find encouragement and hope in listening to this episode.
Disclaimer: We are not mental health professionals. Today’s episode is not, nor should be construed as mental health advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or another qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
Laura’s Biography:
With a fine arts degree in her back pocket, six years of calligraphy experience, and more ideas than she knows what to do with, Laura Joseph is a solar-powered designer enamored with translating love stories on paper. She’s the founder of Paper & Honey®, an heirloom wedding stationery and letterpress studio located in Michigan. Together with her husband Max and two rescue pups, they create meaningful paper for meaningful marriages and laugh a whole lot while doing it. She believes in thick cotton paper, traveling whenever possible, ending the day with hot yoga, creating family heirlooms from day one, and extraordinary love stories that deserve a little permanent ink.
Paper & Honey | Laura’s Instagram | Pinterest | Facebook
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The Transcript…
“[0:00:06.1] LJ: Because I have built a business and I am successful and I am a really happy positive person, so that when I talk about this thing, people don’t really understand where I’m coming from. Or it’s like yeah, but you’re fine.”
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:24.3] DJ: Welcome to the Brands That Book Show, where we help creative service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I’m your host, Davey Jones.
Today’s guest is Laura Joseph, the Founder of Paper & Honey, an heirloom wedding stationary and letterpress studio. In today’s episode, we get to learn about how Laura started her stationary and letterpress business. I know next to nothing about stationary, so it was really interesting for me to learn more about her business. I think one of the most fascinating parts of the discussion is hearing about the letterpress machines that she has. These are machines that are over a 100-years-old. We talk a little bit about what went into adding that into our business, the process, and by process, that’s probably an understatement of researching, acquiring, transporting and maintaining those machines.
One of the most important parts of the episode however is a discussion that we have about mental health in the latter half of the conversation. Laura opens up about her journey with depression, anxiety and ADHD, how that’s impacted her business and what she’s done to deal with those things. I really, really appreciate Laura sharing about this, because I think it’s something that so many of us deal with, but often don’t talk about. I hope people find encouragement and hope in listening to this episode.
I feel silly for having to mention this, but it’s the age we live in. A quick disclaimer, we are not mental health professionals. Today’s episode is not, nor should be construed as mental health advice and always seek the advice of your physician or another qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
Be sure to check out the show notes at daveyandkrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode. I’d like to hear from you about what kind of content you’d like to see on the Brands That Book Podcast as we move forward. I also like to know what episodes you’ve most so far and why. To leave your feedback, head on over to the Davey and Krista Facebook page and send us a message.
Now, on to the episode.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:02:24.0] DJ: Laura, I’m so excited to have you on the show today. I’m so glad that you were able to join me.
[0:02:28.5] LJ: Thanks for having me Davey. I feel like such a fancy lady being on your podcast.
[0:02:34.5] DJ: I was chatting with Krista after Creative At Heart, and I was talking to her about how much I enjoy seeing you at the conference, because I think you’re just one of the funniest people and I always walk away from conversations with you, just smile on my face and having enjoyed that encounter.
[0:02:50.2] LJ: Oh, my Gosh. Thank you, Davey.
[0:02:51.5] DJ: Yeah, kind of a bummer we only get to see each other really once a year. As I told you at Creative this past year, one day I hope to meet your husband as well.
[0:02:58.9] LJ: Oh, my gosh. I want that so much. He’s such a hoot.
[0:03:03.4] DJ: Yeah. I mean, and for anybody who – I don’t know if this video is publicly available, but his Halloween costume from this past year, I mean, it was one of the best things I’ve seen all year, but also gives me nightmares.
[0:03:16.3] LJ: Yeah. Yeah, he’s a character. He loves to – he’s always the most charismatic person in the room. He’s so great. I’m really hoping that I can get him to a creative one of these days, a creative art conference, just because he has heard me sing its praises for years now. Now that he is a part of my business in such a much more substantial way, rather than just a surface level like, “How’s your day been?” Like he’s asking me about paper stocks. It’s the language of what I’m talking about.
Just to have him at Creative and just to see that aspect of what I do and just the community that you’re a part of. He really has no idea of what it’s like and just the atmosphere and he would just thrive in that situation. I’m really hoping that you and all of our other industry friends will be able to meet him too.
[0:04:05.3] DJ: Yeah, I hope so. Just to catch everybody up, even though I mentioned this in the introduction, but you are a heirloom wedding stationery and a letterpress business, right? I got that right?
[0:04:14.4] LJ: Yes.
[0:04:14.7] DJ: Okay, good. I do want to ask you about your husband’s role in the business real quick, just because I think that’s so interesting for people to hear about. I mean, Krista and I have worked together for a couple years now, but there was definitely that period of transition when I was coming out of on my undergrad degrees in theology and then I was a teacher, economics and English teacher for a while. It was a really funny process looking back, getting involved in the business and learning – getting to the point where I know the things that I know now. What’s his background in and how has that transition been for him coming into your business?
[0:04:47.3] LJ: Oh, man. It has been slow and wonderful. Yeah, you look at us and we work really, really well together. Granted everything that I show on social media is like a highlight reel, right? Incorporating him into the business has been slow and confusing and just such a long process. Basically, I have my degree in fine arts and he is a registered nurse. He works in the operating room. That’s his day job.
[0:05:15.7] DJ: Okay, wow. Yeah.
[0:05:17.0] LJ: Yeah. Very, very different. Completely different universes. He comes home and I’m like, “I had a difficult e-mail I had to write today.” He’s like, “I had to transplant six livers.” I was like, “Oh, all right. Well, I have no idea what you do all day.” He’s always been so supportive, just incredible and really doing everything that I really would have asked of him.
Early on in the business it was him helping me assemble. We would have all of our print, our stationery and he would help me cut ribbon, he’d help me apply postage to envelopes, he’d help me proofread envelope calligraphy. Pretty much any physical labor that I just needed an extra body for he was there and that was wonderful.
I’m someone who I can’t do all of this alone and I just really needed a partner. It’s hard for someone like him who – he doesn’t know anything about paper, or didn’t anyway. He didn’t really know what capacity that he could show up and do this, like help me. He can’t help me with blogging, he can’t help with marketing, he’s doesn’t know anything about web designs. It was really hard fitting a square peg in a round hole, something like that, where nothing was really a great fit.
It wasn’t until a couple of years ago when I was doing my taxes and I realized that I had spent 40 grand that past year on just printing. I told Max, “What if that was our 40 grand and what if we did all of our own printing?” That was just this new avenue that we’re going to take for our business. He completely latched on to that. He loved it so much. He was just so excited about that idea, because he is a very – he’s a handyman to his core. He loves tinkering with machinery and I don’t even know how to describe it, because it is so beyond my realm of knowledge, I guess, but he is just creative in such a different way that I am.
He loves building furniture, he loves sketching out designs for our basement bar and making sure that it happens. Anyway, he loved doing the research on letterpress machines and finding out all the different types of machines that there are and figuring out okay, this is the type of machine that is going to work for what we need. He’s the one who found the machines, because you have to do so much research just to even find one.
He figured out how to ship 2,000 pounds of cast iron across the country. Just really things that are just so, I can’t figure that out. That’s so confusing to me. I just want to – just leave me to my drawing and my e-mails and I’m happy. He’s just been so great at stepping in in a capacity that I am unable to do. Now that we have these machines and we’re up and running for the last couple of years, he is the print side of our business. Where I do all the design and just head the company. I’m able to hand everything off to him to produce and print and he has just fallen so in love with it in a way that I always wanted, but you can’t really force passion on somebody else.
He is just so genuinely interested and invested and curious. It’s just been incredible to have him know what I do in a very intimate way beyond just coming home from work and asking me how my day was. He comes home and he has all day, he’s been thinking of cool designs that we can do and different print methods that we can incorporate, or what if we use this material. Yeah, it’s just been everything I’ve ever wanted.
[0:09:02.1] DJ: Well, I’m so glad I asked about that and it sounds so fresh too. I just remember when I was joining Krista full-time, there was a lot of things that I thought maybe I would be interested in regarding the job that I ended up not being interested in it at all. Then there being this tension like okay well, the plan was for you to do X, Y, Z and you don’t like X, Y, Z, or maybe some things.
When I came on, it was our wedding photography business and Krista had planned on giving me her editing. I was so slow and not very good at it that she was like, “Okay, I’m taking this back. We have to figure out something else for you.” It is such a process. It’s not as easy as just having a second set of hands right away that are productive.
[0:09:46.0] LJ: Yeah, absolutely.
[0:09:47.4] DJ: That is such – one day I’ll have to have him on to share his perspective. That would be –
[0:09:52.1] LJ: Oh, my gosh. He’ll talk your ear off.
[0:09:54.5] DJ: Well and it’s just a question we get often. We have people reach out all the time wondering like, “Hey, how is it working as a husband-and-wife team? What did that transition look like for you?” We’ll have to have him on. I don’t want to gloss over your story. You had mentioned that you have a fine arts background?
[0:10:11.3] LJ: Yes.
[0:10:11.9] DJ: How did that fine arts background lead into wedding stationery?
[0:10:16.0] LJ: Yeah. Let’s see, I graduated from college in 2012 with a fine arts degree with a concentration on graphic design. My college, high school dream was that I would work at this really chic marketing boutique, downtown Ann Arbor where we have a loft. I think I was just really interested in the actual studio and feeling really cool and legit, like I’m a graphic designer.
Right out of college, I immediately got a full-time job as a designer, which was huge, because I think I still know people that I graduated with who still haven’t found full-time employment in design. Right away, I felt super grateful. This is incredible I have a full-time job, I have benefits, I have a retirement, but it was at a broker-dealer. That’s right. Yeah, still don’t really know what a broker-dealer is. It was a financial firm and I was working in the basement of an IT department, where I was the youngest person –
[0:11:16.9] DJ: Not exactly that loft that you’re imagining.
[0:11:18.5] DJ: Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. Yeah, basement. I always call myself solar-powered, because sunshine makes such a difference for me. Now looking back, I can tell that this basement IT atmosphere just wasn’t my vibe. All day I was just designing for older realtors and doing a newsletter for this financial firm. It was just like, I don’t know, I was only 22 and I had this midlife crisis where I felt I was wasting my potential and I was wasting my youth. Look at all these other young people doing things that I really want to do and that I could do.
In between terrible logos, I was reading a lot of design blogs and just dipping my toe into the fact that a creative, self-employed industry was a thing that existed and it was a thing that was actually possible and capable for me. My mom actually has been self-employed since I was 10. A couple years later, my dad quit his job to join her full-time. That also in the back of my mind was this is the path I’m supposed to take, because that’s what I’d seen really my whole life.
[0:12:34.6] DJ: That’s awesome you had that example.
[0:12:36.8] LJ: Yeah.
[0:12:37.6] DJ: That’s really cool, because I think a lot of people they just have to figure it out. They don’t really have a – for me, that wasn’t even on the horizon. I’m so thankful for Krista and the risk that she was willing to take, because I just would have never taken that risk myself.
[0:12:53.3] LJ: Yeah. It’s really scary too. Thankfully, oh man, I’m embarrassed to say that I only lasted at that full-time job a couple of months literally. It was just so – that was the first time I realized like, “Oh, okay. I’m depressed.” In a literal way I was just – I was so, so unhappy. Coming home every day and just crying and feeling like this isn’t for me and this was supposed to be for me and I immediately knew, “Oh, I actually really hate this on just such a deep level.”
Thankfully, my parents with their background, I told my mom like, “Hey, I really want to quit my job and I want to start my own something.” I don’t know it was design. I didn’t have it figured out, that I wanted to do stationary yet. I just knew that I’m talented, I’m driven, I’m capable of doing this and I can make this happen. I don’t have a figured out yet, but I can make it happen. My mom was just like, “Yes, go for it girl. You got this.” She was incredible. My dad risk-averse was just not trying to be supportive.
[0:13:58.6] DJ: Well especially and what was that? It was 2010, right?
[0:14:01.6] LJ: 2012. Yeah.
[0:14:02.9] DJ: 2010, 2012. Even so not too far after the Great Recession, right, of 2008.
[0:14:08.4] LJ: Absolutely. Yeah.
[0:14:10.3] DJ: Like you, I think I graduated in 2010 and the job market just being really, really tough. Again, friends of mine years later still hadn’t found full-time employment in what they had gone to school for, because of the result of this recession. I can see as a dad looking, saying, “Well, you know, you have this great job, salary, benefits, retirement.” Maybe stick it out.
[0:14:35.8] LJ: Yup, absolutely. Yeah. I feel a little bit, I don’t know, I know I’m coming from a very privileged place saying like, “Oh, I hated this, so I quit and then I figured it out.” Not everyone is able to do that and I recognize that it was just I was at a time in my life where I was able to do that. I was living in this tiny studio apartment. My bills were not that much, so I was able to do it. I forgot to mention that while I was at this full-time job in the basement, well I was in the basement, I was working as a contractor freelance designer for a stationary shop in Ann Arbor, called Rock Paper Scissors.
That was such a game changer for me, because it was another small business owner who took a chance on me, who saw me as talented and knew that I could do this. Just reinforcing these things I was trying to tell myself that I could do it. That is where I first learned about wedding stationery. It’s where she would send me jobs and it I just learned all of the things that you only learn through the experience of doing it, if that makes sense.
It’s where I learned okay, an A7 card is 5×7. Here’s how we set up files to send a print, all that technical stuff that you just learn through doing it. I just loved it so much. Even though I was freelancing and paper and honey at time was a freelance design studio. I’m doing air quotes, because I would design what anyone would pay me for, right? Literally anything.
I knew early on that okay, this is unsustainable if I’m just a jack-of-all-trades. I’m not going to be an expert at anything. I really just wanted to be the go-to pro at something. Working at the stationery shop really showed me that okay, I actually really, really love this. Compared with a lot of my printmaking classes in college, where I had been working with a lot of paper and just working with my hands, getting off the screen and working with my hands and dealing with 3D design really, I just knew that this is what I want to do. Am I babbling too much? I feel like I’m babbling.
[0:16:53.6] DJ: No, no, no. Absolutely not. How did that transition into what you’re doing now? You had mentioned, so somewhere along the way Max comes along, right?
[0:17:04.9] LJ: Yeah.
[0:17:05.8] DJ: Max is in there somewhere. We’ve heard a little bit of his story too, but at what point did you start finding clients of your own and not just doing the freelancer stuff for that design studio?
[0:17:16.5] LJ: Yeah. Let’s see, when I first started and I first – I wanted to really go big from the get-go. I wanted to just launch and show up and be like, “I’m an expert. You need me. I’m really good.” It was really tough, because all my freelance stuff up until that point, one, it wasn’t truly my work, because I was working for this other shop. A lot of the things that were my work, I wasn’t super thrilled with, because I was just doing what anyone would pay me for. I didn’t have an ideal client yet.
What I did was in order to beef up my website, I created a collection line of just here are five sweets that are my very best work at the time, looking down at like, embarrassing artist when you look at your early work and you’ve seen how much you’ve grown. I really just invested on making the best things that I could, where if someone saw this work and it resonated with them and it was their style that they would want to hire me.
At the time, I created it thinking that that was going to be my main revenue source was just semi-custom plug-and-play design, where it’s like, “Okay, here’s the suite. Do you like it? All right, let’s put your information on and send it to the printer.” What ended up happening was I made this semi-custom collection, hired a photographer, made it so beautiful, really tried to fake it before I made it. Instead of selling these pieces which didn’t really sell at all, people saw this work that was my aesthetic where I put everything on a table and made my best work and they saw it and loved it and hired me for custom design, which was such a happy accident, because I loved custom so much, where we’re just able to start from a blank slate. I can listen to your story, I can translate that. Yeah, just happy accidents the entire time.
[0:19:17.6] DJ: That’s really interesting what you’re saying about the more template stuff driving more custom work and we experienced that especially when we first launched our website templates. That’s evened out a little bit since then, but what we found is almost an immediate increase in requests for a custom work.
[0:19:33.4] LJ: Yes, isn’t that wild?
[0:19:34.0] DJ: I just thought that was a interesting phenomenon. You started doing more custom work and you had mentioned in a conversation you were having with your husband that one year you’re going through your accounting and you’re realizing that you’re spending $40,000 on printing.
[0:19:49.8] LJ: Yes.
[0:19:50.8] DJ: Was the printing that you were doing, was it mostly the printing you’re doing now, like letterpress?
[0:19:56.8] LJ: It was a combination. This was I want to say 2016 when I was just sat back and looked at this and tried to figure out what we wanted to do. At the time – Yeah, so it was a lot of foil, foil printing, letterpress printing and flat printing.
[0:20:13.1] DJ: Can you tell me what foil printing is? I was actually having a conversation with Four before this interview started. I was trying to explain like, I know nothing about this. This is a subject that I know nothing about. I don’t even know what – I don’t even have –
[0:20:27.4] LJ: You don’t know what you don’t know.
[0:20:28.7] DJ: Yeah, I don’t even – I can’t even picture what foil printing looks like. That’s how much I don’t know right now. Can you explain to somebody who’s completely out of loop when it comes to this stuff what foil printing is?
[0:20:39.0] LJ: Okay, I’m holding up to Davey my business card. Okay, here’s a physical representation. Basically, letterpress printing, I’m going to –
[0:20:48.7] DJ: Sort back.
[0:20:49.5] LJ: – transition. Yeah. Letterpress printing is the oldest – one of the oldest forms of printing from the 1400s. Our machine is over a 100-years-old. The process is all by hand. I’m going to say by hand so much, because it is hand mixed inks printed on hand-cut paper and every single piece of that hand-cut paper is inserted into our press by hand and removed. It really creates this textural beautiful impression on the paper.
It’s the printing where you get it, you hold it in your hands, you’re able to run your fingers over it, it’s very textural and deep and beautiful. Historically ,letterpress printing has been with movable type. You’ve seen those wood blocks with the letters on them that are backwards. Traditional letterpress printing is done with those movable type, where you’re able to put everything that you want in your typeface, put it in the machine and print it from there.
We do modern letterpress printing, which we’re able to design everything digitally, send it off to be made into photopolymer plates. We can do pretty much print anything that we want. We’re not really limited to that moveable type anymore.
[0:22:05.9] DJ: That’s so interesting. How long does it take for those plates to be made?
[0:22:10.7] LJ: Oh, we do boxcar press, which is in Boston I want to stay and they have a super quick turnaround time. I want to say it’s two days.
[0:22:16.7] DJ: That’s incredible.
[0:22:18.2] LJ: Yeah, it’s this process where they do negative. Oh, I don’t even know what it is. Max wants to explore making our own plates and I need to tell him to simmer down, because we do enough so I’m fine with outsourcing this part.
[0:22:33.3] DJ: That’s really interesting to me that these plates that you get back in two days, because I was just thinking so once a client approves the work, it’d be pretty tedious I guess to order new plates if there’s some mistake, or if they change their mind about something.
[0:22:46.7] LJ: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
[0:22:47.7] DJ: I guess with a two-day turnaround, it’s not terrible.
[0:22:50.2] LJ: Well, that’s just to make the plates. We have to actually produce what they want, our production time is anywhere from three to six weeks depending on the scope of what they’re ordering, just because this type of printing is a craft. It’s not flat or digital printing, where it’s just your standard office printer where you just hit a button and it goes. Letterpress and foil, these antique printing machines, everything is just super labor-intensive. We have our hands and our eyes on every single aspect of the entire process.
That’s what makes it so beautiful is because everything is done by hand. Every single piece that we produce is totally unique and one-of-a-kind, because it is printed one at a time by humans, not robot machines.
[0:23:37.7] DJ: Yeah. That’s incredible. I mean, one of the reasons that I liked and we transitioned from digital photography to film photography was I think maybe for similar reasons there’s just the process, right? Even in the process itself is beautiful. When people would ask me why do we shoot film when you can get a similar aesthetic with digital? Part of it is for me. Part of it was because I liked the process.
Here’s the thing, as we use – when we are shooting, we use a camera called the Contax 645, which they don’t make anymore. It’s not a 100-year-old piece of equipment, but even it not being a 100-year-old piece of equipment, it’s sometimes hard to find parts when it gets serviced. That’s my follow up question here, because on one hand it’s like, “Well, what if this $40,000 was our own? We can go out and we could buy letterpress machines.” On the other hand, I mean, I got to imagine that there is some – there’s maybe repairs that have to be made. How labor-intensive is it on that end keeping these machines running when they’re over a 100 years old?
[0:24:42.4] LJ: Davey, that is such a great question. I think that’s also part of the beauty of the process is that these machines are ancient basically. It takes so much love and care to keep them running efficiently, and in order to keep them running in a way that produces the level of work that I want it to. Because the more that you care for your machines, the more they care for you.
Finding a press is probably the hardest part for people who want to get into the actual letterpress process, because these are machines that were made a 100 years ago. They don’t make them anymore. It’s cast iron that you can’t exactly ship that with UPS really easily. It’s not something you can go on Amazon and find something, because they don’t make them anymore. You have to either find an auction, or an individual person selling a machine and it has to be the type of machine that you want to be able to make the type of thing that you want to make.
There’s just so much research that goes into it. Because this is a craft that is typically older, there’s not a whole lot of younger designers or younger printers, it’s getting there which is really exciting. That means that the people who are really experienced in letterpress printing aren’t having online courses, or teaching us how to do this. There’s not a whole lot of resources in order to find out what you need. It’s a lot of internet digging and it’s a lot of people who are experienced pouring into you their knowledge, which I’m just so grateful for because I wouldn’t have been able to do this without a couple of women just really investing in me and telling me what they know.
Basically, our first press we found on eBay. It was a couple of hours north of here in middle of nowhere print shop that’s been open since the 20s. This press has been sitting in this shop in the same spot since the 60s.
[0:26:40.1] DJ: Wow.
[0:26:41.0] LJ: Just old-school letterpress shop. This woman, she had taken over the shop from her dad and they were actually just using this press, which is massive. It’s a huge piece of machinery. She was only using it to print the spines of Bibles and that was it. How big is that? Maybe 3 inches by a quarter-inch on this huge machine.
It’s funny, because I hope she’s not listening to this, but she didn’t clean it very well. She didn’t really take care of it in the way that it needed to be. Every time we use it, Max oils it in the 18 different spots that needs to be oiled and we wipe it down and it’s shining and it’s Max’s baby, because what you need to do in order to take care of these machines.
Okay, so the first hard part is finding the place, or the place who’s selling it. We got lucky that it was in state. We only had to go two hours to bring 2,000 pounds back home. The second most difficult part is figuring out how to move the thing, because it is delicate. If you break anything, you’re going to have to have this whole new process of figuring out where do I find this one specific part of this machine. Finding a scrapyard, I don’t know. It’s so difficult and that’s why I’m hoping and praying that we never have to do any major repairs.
For our first machine, we ended up hiring a friend of a friend who has experience moving race cars, I want to say, like literally moving cars. He was able to go up north, I don’t know, wrap it and I don’t even know the terminology needed to describe how to ship it. Then our second press we found, I think I want to say on Instagram or Facebook. We saw someone selling it, and this is our foil press too. It was located in Virginia.
[0:28:35.1] DJ: A little bit farther away.
[0:28:37.3] LJ: Yes. Seven states, real casual road trip. We rented this U-Haul. Then with the U-Haul, we had to make sure that all the specs were up to where the weight distribution is and how to get the press on a pallet and then how to get the pallet up and then how to get it onto the thing and strap it down and super complicated. The whole thing was so stressful, because I’m just a little twig baby and I cannot – I have no physical strength.
When we’re moving this, I’m trying to – I have my arms out and I don’t know what I’m trying to do, because if it falls, it’s going to crush me. I can’t I help in any way. It was just – Yeah, moving it is really hard, that’s what I’m trying to say.
[0:29:19.2] DJ: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I assume that this is not something when you’re rearranging the garage you’re just like, “Oh, yeah. We can just move this from this corner in that corner.”
[0:29:28.2] LJ: Yeah. When we put it down we’re like, “Are we happy with this? Because it’s going to stay there for a long time.”
[0:29:35.0] DJ: Yeah. Well you showed me your business card earlier and I’m guessing that that foil that’s within almost a letterpress indent. That’s what that does.
[0:29:44.7] LJ: Yeah. The foil press was a whole thing in and of itself, because we knew there are a ton of different kinds of foil printers from printers that are 50 grand and they’re state of the art, very modern and they take up a whole room, but those are for volume of you need a million cards for, I don’t know, Comcast. Comcast doesn’t do foil. They don’t care. I don’t know. You know what I’m saying, like a big corporate company where we’re doing very small runs for weddings, or larger runs for other small businesses.
Our foil press is very similar to our letterpress machine, where it’s the same manufacturer, the same basic type of press, but it has an aftermarket add-on where it is the actual foil heating component. This is a whole other thing that thank God for Max doing research and knowing about –
[0:30:38.9] DJ: Just the different –
[0:30:39.4] LJ: – electricity. Oh, my gosh. Electronics and figuring out, oh, what’s it called when someone comes in and fixes up your wires?
[0:30:49.4] DJ: Yeah, I mean, I can’t imagine – even when it comes to film, I’m not a mechanic on any level. If my car, if there’s anything wrong with it, I mean, the guy in the shop trying to make the noises for the mechanic. That’s so great that he is able to research and diagnose and understand the issues there.
One of the things that you had told me before this interview started was that about 75% of your customer base is out of state, about 25% in state or local. How did you go about finding – certainly finding your first customers, but just getting that word-of-mouth beyond where you live?
[0:31:31.3] LJ: Yeah. Originally when I first started, Instagram was my jam. I feel so old, but I feel Instagram was so much easier back then, when you could just make sure that you were timing your posts correctly. So much of my work came from connections that I made, whether it was with other industry people, not necessarily other stationers, but just people in our creative industry, or wedding industry who I just had a great connection with and who would then refer me word of mouth to their brides, or their other wedding vendors.
Word of mouth was probably and is probably still my biggest referral point. I really try to have just this really incredible customer experience, so that when a couple leaves me, they are singing my praises. That is probably just where I put all of my effort into and have seen the most return on investment, I guess you could say most worth it thing that I could explain, I guess. As far as other social media or marketing, I’ve also had a lot of success with Pinterest, just because what I do is such a visible process. That’s not the right way to put it.
[0:32:44.7] DJ: Something that can be documented. It’s very visually appealing for sure.
[0:32:47.6] LJ: Visually appealing. Yes.
[0:32:49.6] DJ: Yeah. What you were telling me beforehand, I just laughed thinking about it is your conversation with a mutual friend Vanessa. For listeners, they know Vanessa because she was on the podcast a few episodes ago talking about Pinterest. You had a very comical discussion with her about Pinterest and how you get something like what? Three millions of monthly views on Pinterest and you’re like, “I don’t know how this –”
[0:33:13.3] LJ: Yeah. One day I logged in and I had three million monthly viewers and I don’t know how that happened. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know how to recreate that over and over again. Again, happy accidents. A lot of my Pinterest success came from submitting my work to Oh So Beautiful Paper, which is the paper blog, the gold standard wedding stationery all things paper blog.
It was also to go full circle, the blog that I was reading in the basement that would just let my imagination and my inspiration run wild. I submitted to them and they published it on their blog and pinned one image to their Pinterest. That pin went viral and I’ve just been trying to chase that high ever since, because I don’t know. I’m just not a marketing person. I’m an artist and it’s just really difficult for me to wrap my mind around algorithms and funnels. I don’t know. I don’t know any of that. Yeah, I love Pinterest and I try really hard at it, even though I don’t fully understand and I’m in no way an expert. It’s a lot of trying.
[0:34:27.1] DJ: That’s awesome. Even one thing that I talk to people about, especially who are – we talk about SEO a lot, and so we talk about getting published and people who are not photographers often, they complained to a certain extent that well, it’s not as easy for me because I’m not a photographer. That’s true to a certain extent. Even for you, you probably – there’s probably pictures taken of your work that don’t represent your work very well, right?
[0:34:50.3] LJ: Absolutely. Yeah, that’s such a pain point.
[0:34:52.5] DJ: Sure, sure. You still have this blog, like this national or maybe even an international blog that is I guess geared towards stationers, right? You took the time to submit your work to them. That has so much value not only in the referral traffic that you probably get from that, but then the Pinterest traffic that you get from that; the SEO value in having a high quality link pointing back to your website.
One thing that I found unexpectedly through the interviews that I’ve done is the value of PR there. Just so many people talk about how that’s been such a big aspect of gaining traction in their business. I just didn’t expect – you expect to hear about word-of-mouth and things like that. That’s really interesting even as a stationary is this part of this success. Certainly not all of it, was submitting and getting your work published and things like that.
[0:35:42.6] LJ: Yeah, absolutely. It also does so much for I don’t know, just behind the scenes mental work of just the validation that comes with seeing your work and seeing your name published. Just yeah, just valid – it’s so validating. Just feels good, man.
[0:36:04.0] DJ: I do want to transition here. We’ve talked a little bit about your business journey and the last couple years. One thing that I don’t think you’re shy about talking about is just mental health in general. I think this is something and we talked a little about this before the show started, something that so many people experience and deal with. It’s so common, yet on some levels it’s uncomfortable to talk about and sometimes it’s just not talked about a lot, and things like depression and anxiety. You had mentioned sitting in the basement of your first job realizing for the first time that you were actually depressed. Not just circumstantially like, “Oh, I’d hate.”
[0:36:42.3] LJ: This sucks.
[0:36:43.7] DJ: Yeah, exactly.
[0:36:43.5] LJ: I don’t like this. Yeah.
[0:36:45.1] DJ: Can you talk a little bit about how that’s played out in the course of your entrepreneurial journey, how that’s impacted maybe you as a business person and how you’ve dealt with that a little bit?
[0:36:56.9] LJ: Oh, yeah.
[0:36:58.5] DJ: I know that’s – I’ll let you gather your thoughts here, because I know that’s an abrupt change from hey, what are your best marketing channels? Hey can we talk about depression? That’s not exactly the transition that I had – I imagined in my mind, but it’s an important conversation to have.
[0:37:14.5] LJ: Yeah. For me, it’s just like, “Where do I begin?” Yeah, so I’ve always struggled with anxiety my entire life and I never really recognized it for what it was, which was anxiety. I just thought, “I just have a lot of feelings about a lot of things and I am just a basket case,” and just wrote it off to that just like, this is just the way that I am. It has become so apparent ever since I left college. I left my full-time corporate job and I just launched into this full-time entrepreneurial journey, where I am my own boss and I call the shots and it’s up to me really in order to make sure that anything gets done.
When I first started my business and I was just in the throes of figuring everything out and just getting everything off ground, I remember very specifically that it was winter and it was the first winter that I really experienced seasonal depression. I live in Michigan, so winter is 10 months basically. It’s not so much the cold that gets me, but it’s the dark. When it gets dark at 4:30, I just crawl inside myself and I feel really bad. It took me a couple of years to recognize it for what it was and it was seasonal depression, where I was just like, “Oh, I’m just sad right now. That’s it. There’s not really any reason for it.”
[0:38:44.6] DJ: Yeah. You had mentioned that this is something you feel maybe you’ve dealt with your entire life and it wasn’t really until college where you put a name to it.
[0:38:51.3] LJ: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It really wasn’t until I graduated and I didn’t have the people watching over me. I didn’t have my parents. I wasn’t living in their house. I didn’t have teachers telling me what to do and guiding my days. When it was up to me being self-employed and the day is my oyster, I can do anything today. I don’t have that structure that I think helped me for so long, that I started to feel I was floundering for the first time.
Because I didn’t have a name for it yet, it was just really difficult to deal with the struggle of just what’s wrong with me that I feel this way? I can’t figure it out. I’m just broken and it is what it is. That took me a while to identify and grapple with and heal from. I’m coming from a place now where I am so good and I’m so much happier than I’ve been in a really long time. I am on an upswing, so I don’t want this to be real doom and gloom, but I just never expected that I would get better, which is why it’s such a big deal for me.
[0:39:57.8] DJ: Yeah. I think one of the reasons I want to talk with you about it was because it is this redemptive story. You’re not in the pit of it right now. Like you said, you’re on this upswing. I do think that this conversation is important to have, because it is hopeful.
[0:40:14.8] LJ: Yeah, absolutely.
[0:40:15.9] DJ: Throughout your business, how did that manifest? Was it just hard running a business dealing with this stuff?
[0:40:24.1] LJ: Yeah, yeah. It really, really was super super difficult. I feel every time I talk about it to someone, they always seem so surprised, because I have built a business and I am successful and I am a really happy positive person, so that when I talk about this thing, people don’t really understand where I’m coming from where it’s like, “Yeah, but you’re fine.” Yeah, you’re sad, but you’re fine.
Really the turning point for me and just going into your question of like, how I saw this manifest was this January I was diagnosed with ADHD, which I have suspected that I’ve had it for since college. My third grade teacher told my parents that she thought that I had it, but I think that they thought like, “Oh, well. Laura is smart, she gets good grades. There’s no way that she has ADD,” because the picture of ADD is a little boy bouncing off the ball, right? Where my particular ADHD is the inattentive kind.
For me specifically, it feels impossible to focus, it feels impossible to sit down and do the thing. It’s really just how my brain is wired, where it’s hard for me to switch from thinking mode to doing mode and that’s called the executive function. My executive functioning in my brain doesn’t work like it should, or I would like it to.
In my business, it just felt I couldn’t do anything basically. It felt impossible for me to juggle every single hat. On a comparison level, I was looking at all of these other businesses and business owners who we started at the same time, we’re the same age, we were “the same level” and she could handle things one through 10 and it felt like every day, I could only handle one through two. I can only do this very small significant amount, because it feels physically impossible for me to do anything beyond that.
It was so frustrating, because I felt – and I still feel I am giving 200% every day and I’m only really moving my business forward an inch every day, when I’m giving a mile. I remember once I was at this conference or a workshop listening to a speaker who I hold in such high regard and she was talking about passion and drive and motivation. She said something like, “You are born with drive. You can’t learn drive.”
I remember sitting there in the back of the room and I felt so small, because up until then and at that moment I was just thinking, “Well, if I can’t do this then I just must not have the drive. I guess, I’m just not made for this.” It wasn’t until I actually heard a TED talk about ADD and it spoke to me just – it felt I was reading my personal Bible, where it was just like, “Oh, my gosh. Someone’s in my brain,” and I made the active decision to go and talk to my doctor about it, who then referred me to a psychologist. I took the test and it was just overwhelming and it was just the most oh, my gosh, burning bush crazy moment where I have been this way for so long.
It’s not that I’m crazy, or lazy, or not motivated. It’s that this is literally brain chemistry. It’s not a moral failing that I can’t do these things. It’s literally that my body can’t do it and that’s okay. It was just moving forward with that knowledge as power really of just okay, now that I have this label, what can I do with that, that it is not me, it’s not my failing? I keep saying that, because I felt just like a failure for so long and I didn’t have a box to put it in of this is why I am this way. It was me for years saying that well, I guess I just suck at this.
[0:44:19.7] DJ: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s going to resonate with so many people. I mean, it certainly does with me, something that I’ve dealt with for as long as I can remember as well is just severe anxiety. I found different ways to manage it and I’m excited to talk here in a second about the steps you’ve taken since January to get into this upswing.
Yeah, I mean, it used to be that there are some days where I just couldn’t get myself up and working in the day. On some level, you can logically go through and process like, I know this is ridiculous that I feel this way or whatever, but it like just, enable to move myself beyond that. It’s taken certainly time to figure out like, okay, here are some things that I need to set up in my day to avoid these feelings, or suppress them for, so that I can function.
[0:45:11.9] LJ: Absolutely.
[0:45:13.6] DJ: You went, you saw a psychologist. From there, what does that look like? I’m sure that it was such a relief to have this validation of no, it’s not that I’m just not born with this thing called drive or whatever that meant, but beyond that, what are some of the things that you’ve done to – that have been the catalyst for this upswing?
[0:45:34.4] LJ: Yeah. Much of it is consistent daily habits and also just really trying my hardest to be as mindful as I can. I am not someone who is a woowoo person, whatsoever. Even a couple of years ago, the word mindfulness was just super hippie. I don’t really understand this. It’s on par with I believe that horoscopes affect my – I don’t know. I don’t want to offend anybody. Horoscopes are fun, but I don’t whatever.
Really, my daily habits that I have been implementing are just really caring for myself and taking my downtime in order to do a lot of self-improvement. I’ve never been someone who’s a self-improvement type of person. I love hot yoga. That has been the biggest change, I think for me is doing this hour-long practice where I’m sweating my brain out and I’m truly feeling what it’s like to be in my body at that moment. It’s an hour where I don’t have a screen in front of me, I don’t have anxiety, my thoughts are not racing, it’s just one hour where I’m focusing on my breath and I’m focusing on I just need – everything hurts and I just need to get through this. It has been such an empowering experience for me to be able to do that.
I’ve been going to yoga for over two years now, which for me is a huge deal, because I’ve ever been an active person. Along with that, I journal a ton; that is such a huge tool for me is just my mind is racing, I feel really foggy and confused and anxious and I don’t know why. Writing helps so much to just work through those feelings and recognize what is true, what I’m telling myself and what is just a story that I’m telling myself that’s true.
Along with that is practicing meditation, which goes into the being in your own body, grounding yourself. For depression specifically, especially seasonal depression, I love my happy light, which is on my desk right now.
[0:47:44.8] DJ: I think I saw you Instagram about that. Yeah. Tell me about that again. It’s basically – I mean, it’s almost like having a sun.
[0:47:54.0] LJ: Yeah, a tiny sun on your desk. Yeah, basically it’s just a small light that replicates the vitamin D type of environment of sunlight. In the winter, like right now it’s noon and it’s pretty dark in here, it just gives my brain the pick-me-up that it needs from sunlight and that helps a ton. Beyond that, as far as working, it’s just trying to create an environment that makes me feel happy and comfortable and joyful. Just investing in things that make me feel good and allow me to create my best work and just be my best self every day, I guess.
[0:48:34.7] DJ: Yeah. About how many times a week are you doing something like hot yoga?
[0:48:37.7] LJ: I try to go at least three times a week. I love to do it at the end of my work day, because it is such – it feels so good that I now look forward to it, which again is crazy for me that I’m looking –
[0:48:52.2] DJ: I’ve done it a couple times and every time, I feel I’m going to die. I feel nauseous by the end of it. Yeah.
[0:48:57.5] LJ: Yes. It’s so hard. You get used to the nausea. Or no, no. Scratch that.
[0:49:02.0] DJ: Or you get past it maybe?
[0:49:03.3] LJ: Yes, you don’t get nauseous anymore. If it’s been a while since I’ve gone, I can tell that I’m not acclimated to it anymore. There’s just something so humanizing about just sweating all of your – everything out and it just feels so, I don’t know, purifying in a way. I don’t know. It’s been really good for just my overall physical and mental well-being.
[0:49:31.4] DJ: No, but there’s two things that you mentioned that I feel also have worked for me. One, not hot yoga but just exercise in general. I find that specifically if I start my day with exercise, it makes such a big difference. I was just reminded of that really, but when Jack was born, our daily routine just has completely changed. We finally got back into – I finally got back into routine of exercising consistently in the morning. When you do it, like when you’re – it’s your first week back having not done it for a while, it’s crazy. You can really see and feel the difference, I think throughout the day. The other thing is journaling. I don’t journal in the sense of, I guess I don’t journal.
[0:50:11.5] LJ: Dear diary.
[0:50:13.5] DJ: That’s the thing is I’ve tried in the past and I just feel so ridiculous. In part, I think though. This is probably in part the therapeutic aspect of it, where sometimes when I’m writing maybe how I’m feeling about anxiety or stress, writing it really does put it out in the light. As I write, I just think that just sounds – I can’t believe –
[0:50:32.9] LJ: It sounds stupid. Yeah.
[0:50:33.8] DJ: – I’m worried about that. What Krista and I do on a regular basis is that we write each other a quick note in the morning. For me, that’s similar to journaling. Because if there’s something I’m dealing with, or I’m stressed about or feeling, I can put it out there to her in a way that’s easier for me than to say. It’s easier for me to do that than to say it out loud. Partly, because some of it is ridiculous. Some of the things I worry about are ridiculous, and so it allows me to share that with her without putting it out in the universe and her looking at me like, “Really?” With that judgment of like “You’re really worried about that?” That’s been a really helpful practice for us. I actually wrote a blog post about it.
[0:51:16.2] LJ: I remember that.
[0:51:17.3] DJ: Yeah. A lot of people, it’s so funny, the response is like, “Are you serious?” I think everybody assumed it was this romantic gesture that we do every day. Yeah, I mean, I’m not saying that there’s no romantic aspect to it, but that wasn’t the purpose and that’s on a daily basis some of our letters are just ridiculous too. They’re just like –
[0:51:36.1] LJ: Oh, I love that. Do you keep the letters?
[0:51:38.1] DJ: Yeah, we do. Although there’s been some debate as to whether – I don’t like the idea of keeping them, because my letter is I’m – Like I said, you write certain stuff down and it should be destroyed. It should be put in a fire somewhere.
[0:51:52.9] LJ: I relate to that. Right in front of me, I have my journal. I don’t think I’ve ever – I don’t go back and read past entries, because I get embarrassed.
[0:52:02.3] DJ: Yeah. There’s really nothing to be embarrassed about, but I understand the difficulty and looking back at some of those stuff. Some of the stuff, we do keep – like around the time we found out Krista was pregnant, those letters of course I’m sure will make their way and do like an album somewhere. A lot of it, I’m just – maybe when Krista is not looking one day, I’ll use it as bonfire and material.
[0:52:25.9] LJ: No. No, don’t do that. That’s funny.
[0:52:29.4] DJ: I’m so happy that we got to have this conversation, because like we mentioned at the beginning of it, it’s just something that I think so many people struggle with. It’s not talked about often. There are ways to deal with it. I don’t know if move past it is the right way to put it. I know for me, it’s something I think I’ll deal with forever.
[0:52:50.9] LJ: Absolutely. I think for me, something that I’ve been resonating with a little bit is just that this is a thing that exists. I’m never going to move past it like you said. What I need to do is learn how to surrender to it and learn how to accept it and work with it, rather than resist it, because I’ve spent years trying to resist it and it hasn’t gotten me very far. It’s up to me to recognize that I have the ability to change my trajectory.
I think that that’s my biggest, I don’t know, point of growth from this year is that for so long, I felt just such a failure. I felt really dark and really hopeless and just I can’t do anything, just really beating myself up a lot. Not intentionally. These are just things that unconscious thoughts that I would just carry with me in my body all the time. Rather than just thinking I am a failure. I didn’t have those thoughts, it was just a deep-seated truth that I had really. It’s just recognizing that that may have been my story then, but it’s not my story now and that I have the power in order to take the steps to change how I want things to turn out.
For example, feeling like a failure for so long, I hate this time of year. It’s December. I always hated December, because I would look at the year and only see all the things I didn’t do. I would only see, “Oh, I wanted to do this in January and I only got 5% into it, or just I tried this and that really sucked and I’m not good at that.” I also hate this time of year, because it means goal setting for the upcoming year.
Before I found out I have ADHD and just feeling all over the place and flighty and incapable all the time, I knew – my truth, I like you saying that. It was my truth that I have failed at so many things, and so I felt so much guilt and shame around goal setting, because I intuitively knew that like, why write this down because I know I’m not going to do it? I know I’m going to fail at that. Just learning that I have told myself for so long that I’m going to fail, that I never do the thing in the first place, because I’ve had guilt and fear and shame stopping me from ever even taking that first step.
I read this quote and wrote it down, that you are not going with the flow, you are creating the flow. I love that, because it’s just such a reminder of that I have power and I’m capable of changing my trajectory and changing my story and that I may have felt a failure for so long, but that is not permanent. That I can move forward with this and that it is in my power to create the self and the environment I need to succeed and feel good.
[0:55:52.3] DJ: Yeah. Yeah, and I think one of your big real nation’s, right, was via that TED talk that you could – yeah, that you could change things. That it’s not something that if you’re not born with whatever this drive thing is, like moving out of that fixed mindset or into a growth mindset. I know that’s certainly true for me too and just being willing to talk about it with Krista, especially for me personally.
If you’re listening and you’re feeling this way, there is hope. Share about it with somebody who you love and also loves you. I think sharing about it on social media, it’s not that it’s a no-no, but I just think who you decide to be vulnerable with is important, right? Who you’re going to allow speaking to your life about, those sorts of things.
[0:56:40.1] LJ: Absolutely.
[0:56:40.7] DJ: Find somebody who loves you, who you love that you can share about this stuff with. I appreciate you sharing about your story here on this podcast.
[0:56:50.9] LJ: Thanks Davey. Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me talk about all my feelings.
[0:56:55.0] DJ: One thing I want to talk about before we go, you are adding some business to business services into your repertoire.
[0:57:02.3] LJ: Yes.
[0:57:03.0] DJ: Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I’m really interested, because your work is beautiful.
[0:57:08.6] LJ: Thank you.
[0:57:09.7] DJ: You’re not just working with bride and grooms anymore. What does that look like?
[0:57:14.0] LJ: Yeah. I really have this growth. I have Max to thank for this basically, because he has found that he loves printing so much. He loves the rhythm of it. It’s just almost a meditative process, right? The machine makes this ‘kachunk’ noise and he has music on and he’s dancing and he’s doing his thing. You have this result that you made with your hands and it’s so great and powerful to just be like, “I made this thing and it’s beautiful and I’m keeping this ancient craft alive, basically.”
Anyway, all of my business up until this point has really been wedding related. Max wants to print so badly, because he loves it so much that he has asked me – I don’t have enough work for him basically. We really want to just get into printing. We love this craft. We love doing it. We would love to serve other people with it.
Basically, we are working now on Paper & Honey becoming not only a wedding stationery studio, but just a print studio in general. Whether you are someone who you already have your business and you already have your business cards designed, you just need them to be beautifully printed and you want to work with another small business, we could do that.
Yeah, we’re just really hoping to serve other business owners through our print capabilities, our print studio. That just brings us a lot of joy and what we create is really beautiful and we just want to share that.
[0:58:40.0] DJ: Yeah. No, I think that’s awesome, that’s exciting, especially the amount of bad business cards. Good business cards would be one of those things that can we get a business card that as an example, you showed me yours earlier. There’s so many bad business cards out there. This is a great way to get a really good business card and from another small business, instead of from some massive printer somewhere who doesn’t really care.
[0:59:03.9] LJ: Yeah, absolutely. Just the fact that this is a craft made by hand, so we are inspecting every single piece that goes out the door. I am such a perfectionist that Max gets annoyed at me, because he doesn’t have my design brain and my design eyes, where I can see that like, “Okay, this A is a little bit thicker than these other ones. We need to adjust our impression,” or something like that.
Yeah, we are able to do pretty much anything that anyone can think of, just because we are an in-house print studio. We have all the materials. We can cut custom sizes, get a custom paper, pretty much do anything that anybody wants. I love it out of the box project. I love really simple note cards. I love really complex business cards, packaging materials. I just love paper. I have a lot of paper feelings. I just love working with my hands. It’s just so much fun.
[0:59:56.3] DJ: Yeah. If people are interested in learning more about this, I’m not sure if this is something you’ve implemented in your business quite yet. One, if you’re not ready to go on this yet, just let me know and I will be sure to share when this is available. How can people reach out to you to get this stuff started?
[1:00:13.5] LJ: Yeah. I’m actually still in the process of getting all of my processes done. It’s someone gets a contact with me and I have a seamless process of getting them an informational PDF packet and getting all my proofing done. Right now if anyone’s interested, they can just shoot me an e-mail at hello@paperandhoney.com, or go to my website paperandhoney.com and we can take it from there.
Pretty much everything that we do is a la carte. Meaning that just come to me with your ideas and we can make it happen. You’re not really stuck with a template, or a package that you might necessarily not want all of it. I really love being a flexible resource really and just working with people on whatever they might need, and just making the process as easy and fun and enjoyable as possible.
[1:00:58.8] DJ: Yeah. Instagram and Pinterest, also Paper & Honey?
[1:01:02.2] LJ: Yes. @PaperAndHoney.
[1:01:03.9] DJ: Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for sharing not only your business journey, but then also your journey with ADHD and depression and anxiety. We really appreciate that. We appreciate you.
[1:01:14.1] LJ: Oh, I appreciate you Davey and also Krista and Jack.
[1:01:18.3] DJ: Thank you.
[1:01:18.9] LJ: Thank you so much.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[1:01:23.3] DJ: Thanks for tuning into the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to daveyandkrista.com.
[END]
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