Christina Scalera, attorney and founder of The Contract Shop, joins Davey for a discussion on effective client contracts. We cover questions like who needs a contract, common contract mistakes, what needs to be in a contract, and how to work the contract into the client experience.
Find it Quickly:
- 3:06 – From law school to yoga teacher to attorney for creatives
- 13:16 – Who needs a contract? And why is it such an afterthought for people?
- 21:52 – Why a contract benefits both parties.
- 24:58 – How can we make client contracts work for us in the client experience?
- 28:48 – Dealing with people asking to add or take things out of a contract.
- 35:48 – Why Davey & Krista never change their contract for anyone.
- 38:46 – The most common mistakes Christina sees people make with contracts.
- 44:12 – Who should sign the contract? Is it okay for the mother of the bride to sign the contract?
- 47:59 – Why you shouldn’t be scared of getting specific in your contract?
More about Christina:
Christina Scalera is the attorney and founder behind The Contract Shop, a contract template store for creative entrepreneurs, wedding professionals, and coaches.
Three years ago, Christina found herself dreaming of pursuing a more creative path, and she started to look for alternatives to her in-house legal job. She explored everything from teaching yoga to becoming a freelance graphic designer to opening an Etsy shop.
In the process, she ended up coming full circle by creating a business that brought the benefit of her legal training to help her fellow creatives.
When she’s not staring at a computer or awkwardly standing on cafe chairs for the perfect overhead latte photo, you can find her in the woods doing things that are sometimes dangerous but always fun, like riding horses, skiing and reluctantly camping.
Website | Instagram | Facebook | Pinterest
Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
The transcript…
A note about the transcript: The interviews are transcribed by an online app, and there may be errors in the transcription. While we do our best to correct errors—especially those that may change the meaning of what a speaker was trying to say—we do not catch every error. Thus we ask that people refer back to the audio/video for quotes. Also, please refer back to the audio/video if something is not clear in transcript; however, if you are hearing impaired, feel free to email us for clarifications.
Davey : 00:06 Are there certain mistakes that you see over and over again that people make with contracts that they should absolutely avoid?
Christina : 00:13 Yeah. How much time do we have? hm, OK. So here’s some quick ones for you guys. The biggest mistakes that I see are around numbers.
Davey : 00:31 Welcome to the Brands that Book show where we help creative businesses find more clients and build their brands. I’m your host, Davey Jones. Today’s guest is Christina Scalera. Christina is the attorney and founder behind the contract shop, a contract template store for creative entrepreneurs, wedding professionals and coaches. Three years ago, Christina found herself dreaming of pursuing a more creative path and she’s started to look for alternatives to her in house legal job. She explored everything from teaching yoga to becoming a freelance graphic designer to opening an etsy shop. And in the process she ended up coming full circle, by creating a business that brought the benefit of her legal training to help her fellow creatives.
Davey : 01:17 All right, Christina, welcome to the Brands that Book show. I’m so happy that you’re able to join us in part because I’ve been on Creative Empire twice now and have had a blast being interviewed by you and Reina. Um, so I’ve been excited to have you on this show and that, and I’m not gonna lie, it’s actually been really difficult to prepare for this interview because the span of things, the span of things that I want to talk to you about is pretty great. You could talk about e-commerce. Uh, I mean, just before this conversation started, before we started recording here, we are talking about affiliate marketing and we were talking about trademarks. So there’s so many things that we could talk about. So it was really hard to say, OK, now, um, we’re gonna, we’re gonna take this time, we’re going to talk about contracts and everything that you need to know about contracts. So that was really difficult to narrow the conversation down just to that subject. And I’m sure I wouldn’t be surprised if we stray a little bit here, but you’re in Colorado right now where you spend a lot of your winter, right?
Christina : 02:22 Yeah, that’s correct. We, uh, this is a new thing in the last two years.
Davey : 02:26 Yeah, that’s awesome. Super Jealous about that. So again, thank you for taking time out of skiing, uh, to join us here. We start pretty much every episode just trying to get a sense for your background. And one thing that we found, one thing that I’ve really enjoyed learning is that every, everybody’s background is so varied. You know, it’s uh, the journey’s generally aren’t in a straight line, a lot of people went to college for something completely different or had it had jobs and side hustles that were completely different than what they’re doing now. And I know the case for you because, uh, we’ve chatted before, so could you just tell us about how you get started?
Christina : 03:06 Yeah, it’s funny to hear you asking that question because I feel like you’re such a big part of my story. Um, so I graduated law school and got my dream job working in house. Just really, really excited for that and for a lot of different reasons, including some health related stuff, I ended up quitting. I kind of had reached my limit. I was working full time studying for the bar full time, going to school full time and then I take this full time job, no breaks, right. Um, I just straight through college to law school to full time job and it was just all so overwhelming and my health started to deteriorate. So for a lot of reasons, health included, I left. And I didn’t really know what I was going to do and I’m not really someone who’s good at moderation. So I went in and the total opposite direction and became a yoga teacher because I had seen an attorney who had become a successful yoga teacher in DC. We became really good friends. She was a mentor of mine and she kind of helped me get this business started in Atlanta. The problem was I just was really, really bad at booking clients. I would get back to them late. I didn’t have a contract or something to them because when you graduated from law school there was not like a bank of contracts or legal documents that gets handed to you. I’m just like everybody else. I had to go to legal zoom and the corners of the Internet and try to pull something together. Um, because when you google, you know, Yoga teacher contract, unless you find it in my shop, you’re probably not going to find it.
Davey : 04:33 I feel like that’s so surprising here just because of, uh, I mean, since I’ve known you, I mean it’s just shocking to me that you had trouble booking clients because I just think um, you’re such a savvy business person and then also just coming out of law school and having trouble with contracts. I think that says something about the complexity of this issue.
Christina : 04:53 I would agree with that. So I was really frustrated and um, I will say that even though I’m, I’m really good at closing deals now and getting clients on board and I have two businesses one’s a service based business, one’s a products based business. So in my service based business, we do have a really, really good conversion rate to the point where we keep putting our prices higher and higher. People keep saying yes, so that’s a good problem to have. But back then that was, that was not what was happening. And, small tip for you guys listening out there, don’t take two weeks to send someone a proposal when they say they want to work with you. That was a big issue. I was taking a long time, right? Trying to find these contracts and then I was trying to make them really beautiful and photoshop with my incredibly limited horrific graphic design skills. So adding florals to the outside and having this thing that they’d have to print and send back. To me, it was just this horrible thing. So what um, what ended up happening is I took two weeks to put this thing together, put it into photoshop. If you ever tried to write like a seven page document in Photoshop, it’s a nightmare. That’s what indesign is for, if you have to go that route. But I didn’t know that at the time. And so finally this thing is done, it’s horrifically pretty, like in the, in hindsight it was not pretty, but at the time it was like, this is beautiful, I can’t wait to send this. But then when it came time to send it, I’m like, wait, two weeks have passed. And I started doubting everything about me. Right? So this is a situation that I find myself in. I’m also like many of you, I’m like, what? The possibilities are endless. I could be a calligrapher uh, well I have to shoot photography for my blog that I have for this yoga thing. So maybe I have to be a photographer. Um, well I have to design graphics for Pinterest. I’m actually a good graphic designer. I wasn’t, but you know, these were all the things that I’m like, well, you know, yoga is not really making money. I don’t know if I really want to work with clients like one on one in that intimate kind of way as a private yoga teacher. And so I’m like, all these other possibilities are now a thing because I started this blog and I’ve, I’ve gotten experience there now. Fortunately, I went to a lot of different creative conferences. That was where I met you in the fall of 2015, at creative at heart, but that was like, that’s like– listen, if you guys want to meet someone, this is probably not how you should do it. The rising tide had just started and the co-founders and I messaged Krista and I was like, Hey, I know you’re here. Uh, I want to talk to you about this idea that I have. And I had like zero business experience, zero success, just like a passion to do this thing. I messaged her and I’m like, I think you need a podcast that’s where things are going.
Davey : 04:53 Haha well you were right. That’s where, that’s where things were going. You know, I wish I started this podcast like three years ago. I just needed everybody to get a three year head start. haha, that’s fine.
Christina : 07:53 Haha, no, I love it. So like here I am, all these like creative pursuits and passions and dabbling and all these things. I’m not really making money, but except for working with a couple of legal clients on the side. And then finally seeing the light and then coming to this creative conference where I’m like, business-legal, it all makes sense, you know, all this stuff meshes together. And then approaching Krista and she’s like so polite about it. She’s like, well, I think you should talk to Davey. And so I ended up talking to you there at the time, the contract shop or what is now the contract shop had had been born. I put up a squarespace website. I had this idea, I was trying to pre-sell the templates. Um, I had a couple nibbles here and there, but not really like success, right? And you’re like, well, I think a podcast is maybe a little far out right now from what we’re doing, but we are doing this webinar series. And you were so kind to bring me on to this webinar series, which I had no idea what to expect.
Davey : 08:47 I’ll let you in a little secret. Webinars were a new world to us and the podcast to me, it always sounded like a really great idea. I think we just so busy at the time with so many different things going on with our own business and then with The Rising Tide Society growing. But you know, whether you had realized it or not at the time you were offering a ton of value to us because you were a lawyer, you know, and I think one of the most, one of the biggest questions we get are about contracts and trademarks and copyright law and so on and so forth. And we couldn’t keep up with the amount of content that we wanted to create so it was awesome that you came along and, and, uh, and pitched that idea.
Christina : 09:31 Well, I am glad I asked. That was horrified on that first webinar. And you were also so kind to let me pitch and I think I put out the world’s worst pitch to this giant audience that you were so kind of put me in front of it. And it was just kind of like, “well, I have this website that um, it kinda has a stuff on it, if you want, you can go buy it”, like somewhere out there someone has the recording of it. Haha! I hope it’s been destroyed, but I’m still proud of the content. Actually I still use the slides that I created. That’s kind of my foundational content that I still use for some presentations. But yeah, that pitch was not good.
Davey : 10:07 But the important part was that you just got out there and you did it. I mean all of that, through all of that, you just kept on going. You went and pitched even though maybe at the time you didn’t know really what that should look like or you probably would coach somebody a little bit differently than, you know, how you did it in the past. Right. And the Webinar was new, but you did it anyways in got out in front of people. And I think, uh, I mean I remember the Webinar and I thought it was a great webinar. I mean, as far as the value goes, I mean, we could talk about the sales pitch at the end, um, but the, the content that you provided was incredible. And so I think a lot of people were, were blessed by that. Um, you know, by getting on and watching that.
Christina : 10:52 Well thanks, yeah. So anyway, that was how The Contract Shop was founded and um, it, it was just my name at the time and it’s since evolved into that. So.
Davey : 10:57 And so really it was, it was at Creative at Heart where you kind of realized, “Hey, you know, I love this creative side” because you had been exploring different things, whether it be yoga or calligraphy or photography. And then going into Creative at Heart, you realized, “Oh wow, this, this legal stuff.”
Christina : 11:16 Yeah. It was a combination of a couple of different things. So it was a culmination of being a creative, having that reinforced. Because at the time I’d already started the site . So kind of to back up just a little bit– As I was seeking like, what am I going to do? I don’t know, I’m in this place of “what am I doing, I dont know”. If you’re there, you know the frustration, like you know, how hard it is to be there where you’re like, I could do so many different things, but I don’t know which one is going to be like whatever you want– your ticket to financial freedom or time freedom or whatever it is that you’re looking for. And so that’s where I was. And I went to three conferences. I went to Illume where I met Jenna, Jenna Kutcher. So we’re pretty good friends now. And she’s a client and I’m in her mastermind, that kind of thing. So that was where that relationship started and she just kind of pulled me aside that night at illume. She hadn’t talked at all. I had no idea who she was. I was the only person there that didn’t know who she was. And she’s like, you have to do this thing. Because I had come in to that conference, like I’m a yoga teacher but also a lawyer and I don’t know how those things go together and she was like, this is the thing that you need to do. Um, so I’m forever grateful to her for just like pulling me aside in that moment because that’s what kicked off the website. And then getting that reinforcement. I went to “making things happen” and “creative at heart” as well. So those, those were like the reinforcing aspects of like this is something that people need because once I just kind of stuck my, I guess like stuck my nose out there. And I was like, Hey, I have this website. And I sell this thing. Once I started telling people about the website and the contract templates, everybody was like, oh my gosh, I need to go find it immediately. And it was like this– I don’t want to say craze but it was like this very excited feeling that people would get. And that felt really, really good. After two years, essentially of people being like yoga? health? Nah. My blog had maybe 100 readers on it and half of them were spam bots, but you know, to go from like 100 readers to like 600 readers a month. That was huge.
Davey : 13:16 Yeah, for sure. I think there’s so many different people that have gone through a similar, a similar journey and, and certainly I have in the last couple years, um, as we transition out of Rising Tide Society. It’s so hard when there are so many different things you can do and then also so many different things that you enjoy doing, you know, um, to figure out OK, here, where do I, where should I focus my time and energy. So I think that’s a journey that, that will resonate with a lot of people, but shifting or shifting our attention towards contracts. Um, I feel like it is an afterthought even for somebody like you who was a lawyer at the time when you were doing this, uh, this yoga studio. It’s kind of an afterthought for people to say, OK, I need a contract. Even now I find myself– I’m interested in different people that I work with, especially like a lot of lawn care providers, just different contractors that Krista and I have hired and do work around the house. Some of them require contracts and some of them just kind of show up and do the work and get out. Why do you think it’s such an afterthought for people? And then who needs a contract, do you think?
Christina : 14:30 Yeah, great questions. I think it’s an afterthought because it’s scary. Most people already have a story in their head. Like I have a story in my head that I’m bad at math. I’m probably not really bad at math, but I just don’t try.
Davey : 14:43 I have the same story, but I’m actually bad at math. It’s a true story.
Christina : 14:48 Ha ha ha! OK. But like, think about the stories that we tell ourselves. The patterns that we put ourselves in. And I think one of them is business owners is that, you know, we tell ourselves legally is scary and it doesn’t help that there’s a bunch of attorneys out there that are telling you that you can’t do things yourself. And I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again. I had a professor in law school that just told us to make things complicated for people because that was how we were going to keep our jobs. So that was how you stay in business as you make things hard and then they need you as the attorney, as the translator to help them with their stuff. And I don’t believe in that. I think people are actually a lot smarter than we give them credit for. I think the people that are out there that are, maybe I’m just kind of getting their feet wet or were kind of timid about business, um, or making excuses as to I can send that contract because it’s too long or I can’t send that contract because it’s too complicated– I don’t understand it. I’m scared to send it. Those are all stories that we have in our head because first of all, if it is truly an issue like where you don’t understand something, then it’s your responsibility as the business owner to understand that fundamental core document that’s the foundation of your client service provider relationships. So whether that means getting a new template or it means, um, you know, having an attorney or a friend or somebody like walk you through what your contracts are actually means. So our contracts come with holding my hand guides where we just walk you through each provision so you actually know what your contract is saying to you because that’s really important when a client has a question about your contract, it doesn’t look professional for you to go back and say, actually, I don’t know, I didn’t draft this thing. I have no idea. I just downloaded it from somebody on the Internet. Here it is, like, figure it out. Or what often happens is you get scared, right? Like you’re like, oh, I’m not going to book this client anymore. Can you pull that provision out. And that’s, that’s really important. Like everything that’s in our templates– I can’t speak for other attorneys, I’m sure it’s the same, but at least in ours, I know that everything is there for a reason and there’s nothing that’s repeated. There is nothing that successive. There’s nothing that we’ve left out. It’s all very specific and so to take something out, but just because you don’t understand that provision, can be really dangerous. So I think that’s, that’s why contracts or just legal things in general with your business are scary. People just have this idea that they’re going to go to jail. Like “I just don’t want to go to jail.” And you know, that any kind of legal move that they make, whether that’s registering an LLC or, or getting a contract or sending a contract– that that’s something that could land them in jail or that they could get in trouble for. And I get it because it’s very permanent, right? Like when you sign up for an LLC, it’s not just like you signing up for a 14 day trial, this is you committing to your state that you are in business now and that’s, that’s a really scary commitment for people to make. And then, you know, even further when you work with clients, sending that contract that you know is a legally binding document that can be really scary because you’re like, what if I left something out? What if left too much in what if I said the wrong thing? And so you start to second guess and question yourself if you’re not really confident in the document that you’re sending. So there’s two ways to get confidence in the document that you send. One is to have somebody else do it for you and it’s done, you know then that it’s been through the ringer, vetted, tested, downloaded or drafted by an attorney. So that’s one way. And then the other way is just through experience. So that’s kind of the school of hard knocks freeway. Um, and it’s just like anything else, right? You have an SEO course, people can spend 10 years trying to figure out SEO for themselves or they could just take the shortcut and grabbed your SEO course and they’re done, right? Like they know what they’re doing now and they’re getting results in six months instead of six years. So, I mean, just like anything else that’s available for them. That’s, that’s the path. Hm, I am forgetting your second question. That was a follow-up I think.
Davey : 18:39 Oh No, it was really, it was really who needs, um, but I mean, this is a good place to pause because I, what you, what you’re saying reminds me of something that I, uh, I was either in one of his books but Tim Ferriss, author of the “Four hour work week”, right? It was either in one of his books or was the interview that I was listening to and he was talking about all these interviews he does with these crazy talented people. And I think it was in the context was a Tools of Titans, which is one of his more recent books. So one of the interviews he was doing and he was talking about how, you know a real expert is that they can take what seems like a really complicated subject and break it down into simple components that even he as a novice to whatever that subject is, could understand and uh, and that’s something that really stuck with me and I think it’s awesome. And we have contracts of yours from The Contract Shop and I just think it’s awesome that you take the time to explain what those things mean, that you don’t make it overly complicated just so that it seems like a subject that nobody else could possibly master or do on their own. So I think kudos to you for um, for doing that.
Christina : 19:47 Yeah. Trying! Trying every day to make it easier, better, quicker, faster. It’s, you know, and it’s funny Davey because I’ve had a lot of resistance to updating the templates even though it wasn’t getting feedback but laws were changing. Things were changing and I’m like, oh my gosh, what if– our templates come with lifetime updates– And I’m like, what if they think that because I want t update it that I forgot something or you know, that something was wrong and that I’m like this bad, or imperfect person. And um, I’ve just been updating them like crazy lately because I’m like, you know what, maybe they think that, but at the same time, like the people that do make the changes and the updates that we’re making, they’re going to have a better, more solid contract. So not serving them that wouldn’t be having my best business or having my best foot forward with them. So yeah, I mean, I think as far as like, who needs a contract– anybody that wants to have a business, this is the first investment that they should be making. Well, arguably a website too!
Davey: 20:48 So for anybody who has a business, you know, because like I said, we actually had two different companies come in and cut our yard for, you know, I mean the months in which your yard needs to be cut right? So one company, they just show up. They show up, they do the job and we stick a money under the doormat, that’s how they prefer to collect it. And it’s great. So the other company they’re a little bit more technologically advanced. They have us sign a contract online and then they also just have it come out of our account every month, you know, it’s auto-pay. So even for a company like that where I think we pay like 35 to $45 a week for that service. So even somebody like that should have a contract.
Christina: 21:29 Well, which one are you using now? Are you still using both of them?
Davey : 21:33 No, we actually ended it this year. So it’s something that I’ve done in the past and I actually like doing and it’s just the last two years had been busy. So we had somebody else do it for us, but the second company that we use, the most recent company we used was the one that didn’t have a contract, you know, just kind of preferred cash her check under the, under the doormat or in the mailbox.
Christina: 21:52 Interesting. Yeah. So I’m thinking about it and I’m kind of horrified. I’m just because you know, what if they get hurt, like lawnmowers is, have lots of crazy things happening. There’s rocks that are windows and blades and like all this stuff. And what if it happens on your property? If you have a contract, there’s probably something in there. There should be something in there that is talking about if the care provider, the lawnmower guy or his assistants whatever, any of those contractors show up on your property– if they get hurt and it’s because they were like messing with the blade or whatever that it’s the company’s fault. So that’s something that you could read into and see in the contract when you’re working with that service provider. And it’s no different in the businesses that are listening to this podcast either, right? So if you’re a brand designer or you’re a photographer and somebody gets hurt on your watch, whether that’s physical hurt– you put them in a pose and they fell over or whatever, um, or intellectual property hurt where you are designing something and you don’t realize that the design you created is actually like, you saw it four months ago somewhere and you internalize that. You didn’t even realize it, but you just spit out somebody registered trademark as your client’s design. So those are the kinds of things that if I were hiring a service provider, I would want them to take that professional step, um, and have a contract that either tells me that they are liable if something like that happens and I’m not as, as the person using it out in the world. Or I would just make sure that they have insurance to protect against things that happened because everybody knows, like Murphy’s law whenever something can go wrong it’s going to. So just having the contract, it’s there for the service provider to make sure that they get paid and to promise to the client what’s actually going to be happening during the work. And then also probably the section that everybody reads, talk about how this, this agreement gets canceled or terminated eventually. And then also on the flip side, that contract is there for you as the client to make sure that the service provider is actually going to do what they said they were going to do. So you know exactly what it is that they’re providing. And then the manner like how they actually are going to be providing this service. Is their insurance behind them? Do they guarantee results for 14 days? Or like if you’re not happy with your landscaping or your brand or your copywriting, like do you get revisions or do you get somebody to come back and fix your landscaping? So those are the things that are protective for the client. So it really works for both sides. And I just think everybody needs a contract, even if you’re selling a product, right, like your contract isn’t necessarily a client service agreement, but you have a terms and conditions policy on your website that outlines what people can and cannot do on your website and what they can and cannot do with, with the images, the blog posts, um, the intellectual property you create. So you’re not kind of trademarks that you have names, logos, course names, things like that.
Davey : 24:58 It’s interesting what you’re saying about this because as a business owner, when I think about contracts, I think about it in terms of how it’s going to protect me– you know? How it is going to protect my business. And so thinking about somebody coming in and cutting your yard, I wasn’t even thinking about like, oh, how is their contract to protect me? I was just kind of stunned. Oh, they don’t have a contract, so what kind of protection do they have? But I think this is a good segue into talking about a contracts in terms of the client experience because I think we get worried at least at least we did when we first started, like sending over contracts and send you over proposals and kind of worrying about how it’s going to be received or even, um, everybody, I think at some point it’s going to get questions about their contracts. So how can we make a contract work for us in our client experience instead of being something that we are fearful over?
Christina: 25:51 Yeah, great question. Part of it is downloading the things that you guys have in your shop– which Davey is not paying me to say this guy’s– haha, but downloading things like client magazines and having a client specific pages on your website maybe that are password protected to maybe elevate the experience, make them feel a little exclusive. And I really like those auxiliary products that, that supplement the contract for two reasons. One, it really helps your clients to feel loved on because they’re getting this thing that you obviously took care and dedicated resources to creating this for their benefit– just solely for their benefit. I mean, you don’t need to know what a wedding day timeline is. You’ve done this 15,000,000 times, but they’ve never gotten married before. So to have like a client or a page on their website just for them that’s like, “hey, welcome Eric and Kayla like, we’re so excited to shoot your wedding” and you know, “here’s what you can expect.” If you don’t have the money to print this off or you know, you’re all digital. That’s what you do. Otherwise you have like a client magazine that you can send with a little gift ribbon, whatever you want to do. And the reason that’s important is not just for that elevated experience, but also for the second reason that I hadn’t gotten to yet, which is that it helps explain the terms in your contracts that are really, really, really important. Like the cancellation provision, like what they can and can’t do with their images, like the amount of time you’re going to be available to work with them and not anymore because they’re paying you for just a certain amount. It reinforces all those things that are really, really important but kind of suck to point out in your contract. Um, so it’s not that they’re not in the contract, they’re still in the contract, but we’re just highlighting those things for the client in multiple places so that it’s more likely that they’re going to be compliant. And then if there’s ever something that’s a problem, you can say, well it’s in your contract, but it’s also here and here and here and here. And then like they can’t scapegoat you. They can’t be mad at you as a service provider because they just didn’t pay attention. Does that make sense?
Davey : 28:02 Oh absolutely. I think it provides a great, a great way for you to educate people in a different context. Right? So instead of sending the contract over and being like, Hey, just so you know, my engagement session that lasts two hours and two hours and one minute I’m out! The way that it would come off would be much more antagonistic. Right? Then just explaining the length of the engagement session within an engagement session guide that kind of goes over, “oh well this is why engagement sessions generally lasts this long”, and, “this is what you can expect” and you know, so on and so forth. “This is what we would do in the event of weather”. Instead of highlighting those things in the contract where it almost seems a little bit abrasive that way.
Christina: 28:45 Probably. Definitely 100 percent.
Davey: 28:48 So one of the things that I think I was always certainly worried about was getting questions about the contract and we’ve certainly been asked in the past to take certain things out, especially when it comes to like copyrights and stuff like that and I’m talking about this and more in the context of our photography business, Krista A. Jones Photography but we’ve also been asked to add things to the contract, like specifying exactly who’s going to be there on the day or stuff like that. So when you get questions from your client about a contract, especially in regards to removing the clause or adding a clause, do you have advice for people on how to handle that?
Christina: 29:35 Yeah, well I can, I can give general scenarios like I’m not going to give advice because I just don’t know everybody’s specifics. But yeah, I’m happy to talk about this generally and just kind of gives them some information and background on it. So when you make a change to your contract, it’s called an amendment and typically most contracts have some kind of way that you can amend a contract. Probably the most common way is just to have everybody’s contact information in the contract and say that any kind of written correspondence is acceptable. That’s my favorite way to do it. And people are kind of surprised I think because they think like this amendment needs to be this big deal where like something new signed or whatever, but that’s not convenient for you. It’s not convenient for your clients. And an email to your client saying, “Hey, you wanted this thing and this thing and this thing. Do you agree that this is now a part of our agreement?” And then the client writes back says, “yes, I would love that” then it’s done and the contract is amended. And that’s allowed for in my templates if you don’t change them and most other templates that I’ve seen have some kind of amendment provision like this. So yeah, I mean if you are looking at adding something, I would ask like what is the purpose? And you know, does, is this previously covered in the contract? Maybe in different language. Is there some kind of clarity of language that needs to happen and what’s already existing? Because one of the things that can happen if you’re making additions to a contract is you introduce ambiguity and ambiguity is just a fancy word for saying that you don’t know what is the right way to go forward in a situation. So what I mean by that is typically I will see a lot of service providers have three or four cancellation provisions and they just need the one. Right, so you can break it down into different sections, but like you don’t need to have how the client can or cannot cancel four times in your agreement. Having it four times, it doesn’t make it any more clear. It muddies the water a lot because you’re like, which one of these four is going to apply now that I do have to cancel this contract? So it doesn’t make it any more potent to put it in four times. It’s much better to have it in there once, state it really, really clearly. There’s no confusion. You know exactly how to cancel the contract or whatever the provision is at stake and then that’s it. So, if you’re adding something, I would look and see if it’s already there to reduce the chances that you’re going to muddy the waters and introduced that ambiguity and maybe it’s just a matter of adding more specificity if that’s something you’re comfortable with as far as take things out– It’s the same thing you’re asking like what is the consequence of taking this out? If I take this out, worst case scenario, we flood the hotel and um, people fall out of the second floor windows and like worst case scenario, how does this affect our arrangement? So, you know, I don’t think that all client demands are unreasonable. I will say that the majority of requests that I’ve seen like this or just kind of clients that are, um, what’s the best way to say was, I’m just going to say it. A clients or usually it’s their significant others who are insecure and trying to assert their, I don’t know, superiority, knowledge level, especially if –lawyers are the worst.
Davey : 33:02 Haha! They always give me the most anxiety, you know, whenever we work with lawyers or whenever I get the email back that’s like, “Hey, we’ll get you the contract back. I just needed to send it to my mom who’s an attorney”, and then I’m thinking to myself, oh, this is going to be a nightmare. Usually it’s not though, usually, it’s not.
Christina: 33:17 Lawyers are like, well, just be aware that they will always want to make changes because if there’s one thing that lawyers hate, it’s other lawyers. So they want to like assert that they know more than whoever drafted this contract and they’re looking for any kind of thing to change or um, especially–I’m sorry Davey– but I’ve noticed this more with guys right? It’s the fiance who is like really protective and he’s a law student and he wants to change something. Or the father of the bride. That’s also who I usually see doing this. So, um, I think more importantly than the legal stuff, I think it’s important to validate your client’s concerns and just say like, even if it’s a horrible idea, “Huh, that’s interesting. I’ll look at that and let me see what I can work out.” Um, I don’t generally like to introduce that there is an attorney on the back end, you know, even if you’re bluffing, just because I think that in that, I mean, unless it’s really necessary, which, hopefully in a client booking situation, I would run from a client where an attorney becomes necessary. But in that kind of situation it introduces a level of distrust. Um, so, you know, I think to answer your question as succinctly as possible, I think whenever you’re adding or subtracting, look at what the consequences are. Take that story, even if you believe it wholeheartedly, take that story that you’re not capable of understanding contracts or legal things, but just because it’s legal stuff, take that story out of your head, remove yourself from that situation even for like an hour or 20 minutes or whatever. Go through your contract and just ask yourself what the consequences are and then, I mean if you are lucky enough to have an attorney in your back pocket, you’re married to one your friend is one, or whatever. Sure — ask them for a second opinion. I mean it can’t hurt, so um, or you know, if you hire somebody, if this is a really big deal that, that might be worth it. But yeah, I think just asking yourself what the consequence of like, what is this document now look like with, with or without the addition or subtraction is the best thing that you can do. And then validating that client’s concern is the second part of that. So even if it’s like the dumbest request ever you should say “that’s really interesting. Let me look into that. That might be a good suggestion”. I’m never saying outright like that’s a great suggestion. Let me make it right away. I’m saying like what can we do here to make happy and feel validated and secure? Because usually it’s an issue of security, not your contracts.
Davey : 35:48 Yeah for sure, and I think having confidence in your contract goes a long way. And like you said at the beginning of this interview, how you get that confidence in your contract, one way, is having an attorney create it. Whether it’s a template that was created by an attorney or whether it was, whether you actually went and sat down with an attorney and they drafted something specific to your needs. What we found in the past is we won’t ever alter our contract for anybody because we have a contract that was created based on what we need and so there’s really no reason to alter that. Most of the questions we get are around sharing images and who owns the images. So there’s a lot of confusion around the idea that we were the ones that shot the images and own the images you, but of course you can share them wherever you want. So there’s just some confusion around that. And I think that most of the time when we get on the phone with people, when we explained that even if they insist in their opinion, that’s not what the contract says, we can point to other clients and be like, listen, you’re more than welcome to reach out to our other clients. But they’ll tell you, we’ve never told them they can’t download or share or have access to their images. Uh, you know, it’s, it’s generally stuff like that. And if somebody comes back and insist that we make a change to our contract, we just don’t take the client. Because at the end of the day, I think that’s a huge red flag to me. Yeah, it sucks not booking a client, but at the end of the day, they’re going to be, I think, most likely so miserable down the line. They’re going to make you so miserable down the line that that contract just wasn’t worth it to be to begin with.
Davey : 37:19 Especially, and you mentioned this as well, if that distrust is already there, if before you’ve ever worked with the client, there’s already this argument about what should and should not be in a contract. So ditto with everything you said and I think it’s just important to have confidence in your contract and how do you do that? Go get a contract data that attorney created. So are there any things, and you might not be able to answer this question, but are there things that should be in every contract? And I know that’s a, um, you can’t, you can’t answer specifically.
Christina: 37:51 No, that’s fine. I’m happy to answer that. I actually have a resource for this so I don’t know if we can put it in your show notes or something or if I’m allowed to shout it out there
Davey: 37:51 Yeah for sure, shout it out.
Christina: 38:02 OK, cool. So “Rock Solid contract” are “Rock Solid contracts dot com” or “Rock Solid blueprint”. They’re all going to get you to the same place and it’s a checklist that walks you through how to have that rock solid contract because, you know, not everybody can afford our templates. I get that. But I still want people to have access to the resources that are helpful for them so they can maybe go through a contract that they’ve created or gotten from our friend as long as that friend didn’t buy our contract and they’re just getting it haha. So that’s just a resource that we have that’s free, um, that people can grab and honestly I’ll leave it up you guys, but it’s not something that I’m promoting in other channels because it’s such a great resource that people aren’t buying our templates. So I’m like, I need to take this thing down.
Davey : 38:46 So that will go over that kind of outline. You know, what you should be looking for in your contract or what you should put into your contract. All right, so that’s definitely a resource that we will link to in the show notes. And I encourage people if you have questions and you don’t have confidence in your contract, go there and check your contract against this checklist so next time somebody asks you a question, you don’t have to meet that with fear or anxiety, but you can have peace about that. Are there certain mistakes that you see over and over again that people make with contracts that they should absolutely avoid?
Christina: 39:20 Yeah. How much time do we have? Um, OK. So here’s some quick ones for you guys. The biggest mistakes that I see are around numbers. Everybody tends to start out with 30 days from this date this will happen, or like 30 days prior to the event you’re last payments due. Those are really bad numbers to have in a contract in my opinion because it’s not clear what 30 days means. Right? So like your weddings on March 15th and the contract says 15 days or 30 or 30 days before and you’re like, wait a second, is it a leap here? Like where is that in February? OK so what date is my last payment due? Oh crap, I’m on vacation and I forgot to pay. Like it’s just much easier when you have a date in there. So every template of mine I make sure that I have an example of a table, right? And so it’s like this payment in this exact amount is due on this exact date. So that’s an easy way to just have a quick win in your contracts all the 30 days from date, 30 days prior to 800, 20 days, like nobody wants to calculate that out. Is that include business days, holidays? Ah! It is so much easier to just have the exact dates and then there’s no ambiguity. You remember what we talked about? that it’s somewhere where it’s just super easy to do that and you don’t have to have it. And so you know, when people are always like, oh, “what if I don’t know that date” ok then say “to be determined by date”. So you have like a deadline to determine that date, if that makes sense. Maybe other big mistakes I see is having the wrong person or entity sign the agreement. So I worked with a lot of contractors and every time, um, they always send me an agreement and they’re like, “this agreement is between ‘such and such’ LLC and Christina Scalera” and I have to go back to them and I have to say, no, no, no, no, no. I am not my company. My company has to sign this agreement. And this is something that a lot of business owners, even advanced business owners, they make the mistake of doing. They’re just like, whatever, I’ll just sign personally. Well now you’re saying that you personally are responsible for whatever’s happening. So if you’re the service provider and you don’t make good on the promises, aren’t in your contract then that person, like worst case scenario sues you or is threatening litigation or something, you’re personally liable to pay that person back or to issue them a refund. If you don’t have the money, it’s your car and your house that’s getting, you know, a lien against it. So you entering into contracts personally, it’s a bad idea. Um, so signing as your business is actually really, really easy. It’s like I said that byline at the beginning of the contract is “such and such llc entered into this agreement with instead of Christina Scalera, Christina Scalera Llc,” because I was very creative when I titled My Llc. And then at the bottom of the contract I’m signing my name as me personally. And underneath that it says “owner or principle comma, Christina Scalera llc”, because I have the authority to sign on behalf of my company just like anybody else who’s a principal out there have their own llc or if their sole proprietor, um, it doesn’t really matter because there is no llc to, to help you. I know we’ve had this talk a lot.
Davey : 42:49 Krista is the president of ours. And she likes to remind me of that. Every time we sign a contract.
Christina: 42:53 Haha! Well, it doesn’t have to be just the president or the principal. It could be any like managing member. Basically you just have to have the authority to sign so you have to be at least 18, mentally competent of significance in the company that you are making those kinds of decisions and can enter into agreements, um, or you know, both of the names of the or all sort of three or four or whatever. However many business owners that can be listed on there, but that’s kind of overkill. Especially if they’re signing on behalf of the company. So those are the two biggest mistakes I see people making other mistakes, I see people making….Do we have time for this?
Davey : 43:30 Yeah sure but as far as entity goes? Real quick question about that. One thing we occasionally get is, “oh, I’m going to send this over”– I’m talking about in the context of our wedding photography business– the mom or the bride or dad of the bride, whoever, wants to sign instead of the couple. We always thought it was important that the bride signed it because we wanted to work with her. At the end of the day it was her and her and her husband or fiance that needed to be happy with the pictures and they were the people we wanted to work with. Right. Is that the right move? She should you be concerned when you know, or the person you’re working with is like, Hey, let me, let me get my parents to sign this.
Christina: 44:12 I’m glad you brought this up. So one thing that we didn’t talk about earlier in like the lawnmower situation you gave was if there is no written contract, then the default contract is whatever common law contract law in your state is. So there actually are still rules governing your service agreement. They just aren’t decided by you and they probably aren’t very beneficial to you or the client because they’ve been made in favor of public policy, generally not your specific situation. So when it comes to a situation like this, which is really, really common, I’m glad you brought this up, um, where the bride is the one who is signing and then you know, mom or dad also wants to get their signature on it, or you know, that mom or dad is paying and you even though the bride and groom who have signed, you still know that the check has mom or dad’s name. That’s another situation where if their name isn’t on the contract and if you don’t have their signature, it can get really hairy because there’s still a contract that’s formed. You’re accepting the money, you’re cashing it into your account. There’s an acceptance of an offer. You’ve offered to do wedding services or you’ve offered to do wedding photography services. They’ve offered to pay you. That’s an agreement and it’s valid and there is no contract that’s governing that situation. So a lot of people are really unhappy with this answer, but I didn’t make it up. So don’t shoot the Messenger. But, if there is an agreement in place and there are no rules governing that because you just had bride or groom sign it, um, it doesn’t mean that there’s no agreement, it just means that there’s nothing that you’ve done to solidify what the terms of that agreement are so they could just stop paying and that might be totally OK, like there might not be any remedy for you in your state and there is no contract there to overrule and override the rules of the state. So that’s why the contracts really important. And as an attorney I’m trying to get everybody possible to sign because that means that for every single signature that I get, that’s more likely that I’m going to be getting money at the end of the day. When bride and groom run out of money and mom and dad run out of money and you know, father of the groom is finally the last one left there. It means you’re still getting paid at the end of the day. Now, the flip side of that that you noted is that you’re responsible for providing the services you’ve listed in your contract to everybody who signed. And so that can get really problematic when you have a pushy mom. Um, you know, a pushy mother in law, that kind of thing where they are in conflict with the bride and the groom. And so honestly, I wish I had a better answer for that, but that’s, that’s gonna be more like you finessing the relationship with the bride and groom. Maybe having something in the contract even about how they’re your main point of contact, um, and mom and dad are going to be left off of the email, and specifically stating that. So the great thing about writing your own contract and having a contract that you’re giving to your clients is that you get to make up the rules. And as long as the rules aren’t anything illegal, right? Like, you can’t make a contract to punch someone in the face, or like allow them to punch you in the face. That’s an illegal act. You can’t make a contract for that but as long as the rules aren’t something that leads to illegal activity then they are mostly allowed. So you know, you could have something in there about how, yeah, like you guys are all signing, but as far as communications go, mom or dad, you’re going to be left off everything but financial stuff. So that’s the good thing about having a contract and not just they send you a payment and you show up and provide the service because there’s, there’s nothing there governing that relationship. Does that answer the question.
Davey : 47:48 Yeah, absolutely. I think that answers it really thoroughly. Are there any other mistakes that we definitely have to know before signing off here?
Christina : 47:59 I think just not being afraid to get really specific. So I said be specific with numbers. Being specific with the services that you provide is also crucial. And a good example of this is I hired somebody to do facebook ads for me last summer and I won’t name the company because I was not impressed. But they had a contract and it had four parts of the service they were providing and it was really ambiguous. And at the end of the day people were saying our ads were creepy and like just all this stuff, right? I was very dissatisfied and I said, by the way, you didn’t fulfill like this last third of the agreement, so I want a refund for that. And they said they did. And so it ended up being this whole spew back and forth. And um, you know, I’m not perfect. I was really excited to work with us ads agency to get the results that they were claiming they were getting for clients. And I signed the agreement and it wasn’t very specific, but it ended up working out in my favor mostly because I’m an attorney honestly. But just that, that they weren’t specific because I was able to say, well you didn’t provide this and here’s, here’s how I think you didn’t provide this. But if they were really specific as the service provider one, it would’ve been more clear to me if they had or had not gotten results in that area. So I would have been probably more satisfied as a client. Two, they would have had a better argument that they had provided exactly what they said they were going to provide for me. So really quickly as before we wrap up, here’s a good example of what I see a lot in contracts because people are scared to get specific. They will put things like you know, services provided and then they will bullet point list out the services provided. They they will put “Day of wedding photography”. Then after that it’s like “one assistant on wedding day” and then it’s like, um, you know, what else am I forgetting? Like off the top of my head as I’m trying to think about this example. But anyway, you guys can kind of see like these are very general things. And for a lot of us were like listening out there were like, no, that’s really specific and you said you’re going to show up on the wedding day and you’re providing an assistant. But what would be like more specific and probably better off for, for both parties, is to have something in there that says wedding photographer will be present from time to time or be probably just hours, right? Like wedding photographer will be president for six hours. That way if you’re going over, right? If they say, I want you here at 10:00 AM and you are still there at 8:00 PM, you can say when you’re about to hit your six hours, you can say to them, “hey, like we’re right at our six hours, are you OK with me saying I’ll have to invoice you?” Or however you want to. You can probably say in a better way than that. But however you want to just remind the client that like you’ve hit your threshold, they’ve no longer paid for your time past this point. And that’s only possible when you’re specific. Because if you just said you’d show up on the wedding day, they’re like, what do you mean you’re here? Um, but when you say six hours on the wedding day, like it’s very clear that you have been there from 10:00 to 4:00 in the afternoon and it’s now 8:00 in the afternoon or in the evening.
Davey : 51:11 And I think that’s true for, well I mean we found that, I mean definitely in wedding photography because there is what I ambiguous aspects about say, is that eight continuous hours or when you go eat dinner does that count towards your eight hours? So there is a lot of confusion there, especially in DaveyandKrista.com or we’re doing a lot of custom brand and design and logo, you know, development, things like that. It’s easy for work to creep into the scope of the project and all of a sudden it’s like, well I guess I can do that one more thing. And then one more thing turns into 10 more things and it looks like a completely different project than when you started out. And we learned a lot of that the hard way, you know, so, um, speaking of that, that second way to gain confidence through experience, but that’s a tough way to learn.
Christina: 52:00 Yeah, just listing out the number of revisions that the client gets. Even if you have to define what our revision is and then, you know, putting on your spidey-sense clients goggles and saying someone who has never booked the service before, how are they reading this? Because I know when I first started I hahaha, I thought web development and web design and branding, we’re all the same thing. So I hired a firm for my yoga business and I’m like, what do you mean I have to give you colors for this thing? Like, I don’t know, you’re the expert, just make a brand. I don’t care. And they were like, no, no, no, no. We’re designing your website, like, where’s your branding? And I was like, I don’t, you’re with my branding person. I totally didn’t get it. Totally clueless. And what would’ve really helped me in that contract is to say you get one logo with three rounds of revision will be provided or whatever. So just getting really specific in that way is also helpful. But that’s also where a client magazine or a client page on your website comes in handy to where you walk them through the process. If it’s getting a little onerous, right? Like condensing it down to the, the most concise, like shortest, easiest way to say it in the contract and then going bigger and explaining more in, in like the non legally binding documented, right? Like timelines are probably not a good idea to have it in a contract. Um, it might be a good idea to say you’re providing one and it would be providing by date, but uh, you know, that be something better suited for like their, uh, their specific client portal or website that you have where you can tweak it and you’re not legally bound to it where they can’t say like, you didn’t show up exactly at four and started shooting at 4:15 like you said, you went on your contract timeline. haha like I was there at 4: 20 because you told me later. So that’s the kind of stuff that can be difficult. And again, I’m not trying to overwhelm people. I think, um, like if, if anybody takes anything away from contracts and this talk that we’ve had here today, I really hope it’s that you get out there and you just start trying it because if you never get started, if you never start trying the stuff, you never will understand it and you never will feel confident with it. So even if some of this is like in over your head, listen to this interview again and keep pursuing it. For me, contracts for most people, this is how I think they feel for me that’s like funnels, right? If it’s taken me two years to figure out how to make us stupid funnel and um, you know, I just kept at it even though they were intimidating and scary and I was messing up and nothing was working and I was making a fool of myself and I just kept at it. And now I feel like I have a really finely tuned process. So the same can be said for you with contracts.
Davey : 54:35 I think that’s great advice. Uh, I also think that our perception of ourselves while we’re going through things that were not comfortable with is much worse than what others actually see. And going back to that, that Webinar that you did way back when it seems like, um, for the Rising Tide Society on the same topic, to us and to people listening, I’m sure everyone was taking notes the entire time. You might have been thinking to yourself and me and my sales pitch was not very good, but you’re probably the only person thinking that maybe, maybe there’s one person out there, but again I think our perception of ourselves, especially when we’re doing something uncomfortable, there’s just a lot tougher than others. Um, so I think that’s great advice. I also really, just to reiterate what you’re saying about educating your clients through things like client magazines and resources like that that your clients get and then don’t feel like you’ve said it once. So you, you can’t say it again. Yeah, I think that’s something that I’ve been telling a lot of people we work with lately, which is, hey, you can, if this is important for your clients to know, you can blog about it more than once in your life because that blog post he wrote three years ago, no one can find that unless they’re searching specifically for it or you know, it’s ranking or whatever in Google. But again, still it’s a, it’s worth saying again. Um, and it’s worth saying in different ways just so that people get the point.
Christina: 56:00 So true. Can I tell a quick little story about that? Do we have time?
Davey: 56:00 Yeah for sure
Christina: 56:05 So my service based business is a law firm, spoiler alert and anyway. So in my law firm, I do mostly just trademark, trademark registrations, prosecution, that kind of thing. So anyway, when you register a trademark, you get these crazy looking invoices that look very real. They’re all like, you’re foreign registration is pending. You just have to pay $900 and it’ll be on your doorstep. They look super real. And it’s really funny because the government has zero sense of humor, but the USPTO, the United States Patent trademark office actually made a video about these notices and they did it in like the onion style. So, It’s actually funny. I’m like, what? They’re also the only profitable government entity that I know of. Haha so that’s probably how they did it. But that’s an aside. Anyway. The story really is that I tell my clients before I register their trademark about these invoices that are coming, these fake invoices, I tell them right after we have applied for their trademark. I tell them in our monthly newsletter, I tell them when they call me, I tell them on their initial client consult, this is a possibility. I tell them like four or five different places. And do you know what e-mail I get every single week? “Oh my gosh, Christine, I just got this invoice. This is crazy. I don’t have $2,000 to spend on a foreign register.” I’m like, throw it out. It’s spam. And it’s just so true. People are not paying attention as closely as you think they are, even if you’re like putting it in bold in orange highlighter texts in front of their face, which I am doing. So it’s both encouraging and it can be a little bit discouraging, but I think the moral of the story is like just keep, and for SEO purposes, keep putting it out there. Geez. Yeah.
Davey : 57:54 Haha! yeah absolutely. Well listen, Rock-solid contracts dot com the contract shop dot com and then where can we find you on social media and anywhere else you are outside of, on the slopes out west.
Christina: 58:02 Yeah. You can’t. Haha! No, Just kidding. I’ve been really bad at social media lately but if you guys really want to follow me it’s Christina Scalera on all the platforms or the contract shop on all the platforms. Um, there’s both. So we would love it if you would just give the contract shop a little love on facebook, like our page, give us little comments, something like that. But um, but yeah, that’s probably the best way to interact with us. Um, or just write us a message. We love talking to people. There was a big old chat box on the contract shop dot com and it’s for that purpose. Um, cause I, I just, I’m back there looking at everybody’s questions, comments, concerns, and creating content for what they write in about. So yeah, that’s the best way to get in touch.
Davey : 58:43 And uh, her newsletter via the contract shop. I don’t know if you have any other but the newsletter I enjoy it usually comes out on Fridays, right? Uh, and they’re funny. They’re great content too, but they’re also very enjoyable to read.
Christina: 58:58 Well, thank you.
Davey: 59:00 All right. Well, like I said, we’re going to have to have you get back because we have a thousand other things that I really want to ask you about. And as I say so many times to, um, you know, just one of the reasons I started podcasting is a great excuse to sit down with people like yourself, who I really enjoy learning from. So thank you for sharing your expertise and time with us today and I hope to have you on again soon.
Christina: 59:00 Yeah. Thanks Davey!
Davey: 59:28 Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on itunes and leaving a review so that others are more likely to find it.
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