Elisa Watson, co-owner of Showit and founder of the SiNes of Life podcast, provides insights on how to approach personality tests and how it relates to work, the differences between the letters that form the MBTI test, and how we can practically use this information.
More about Elisa:
Elisa loves studying personality and exploring the ways it impacts our lives personally, relationally, and professionally. She and a fellow personality-loving friend chat about that and other things on their podcast, SiNes of Life. She also loves to write, and (when time allows) her usual topic on her blog is life as a mom of four boys. She co-owns the drag-and-drop website company Showit with her husband Todd, who she has been married to for nearly seventeen years. They call the warm but wonderful town of Gilbert, AZ home.
Elisa: Website | SiNes of Life | Showit Website |Instagram | Instagram | Facebook
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The transcript…
A note about the transcript: The interviews are transcribed by an online app, and there may be errors in the transcription. While we do our best to correct errors—especially those that may change the meaning of what a speaker was trying to say—we do not catch every error. Thus we ask that people refer back to the audio/video for quotes. Also, please refer back to the audio/video if something is not clear in transcript; however, if you are hearing impaired, feel free to email us for clarifications.
Elisa: 00:07 With sensing and intuition, 70 percent of people are sensors and only 30 percent are intuitives. And this is interesting because if you think about marketing, most marketing is really geared towards pointing towards the future and wanting to help people think outside of the box, but when you recognize that 70 percent of the population are sensors, that means there’s a majority of people who are kind of comfortable with the way things are and the way things have been or are maybe a little bit resistant to change.
Davey: 00:43 Welcome to the Brands that Book show where we help created businesses, five more clients and build their brands. I’m your host, DaveyJones. And today we’re chatting with Eisa Watson. She is the co-founder of the drag and drop website building platform, Show-it and she’s also a personality expert. Today she’s chatting with us about the various personality types and how having an understanding of your personality can lead to better relationships.
Davey: 01:05 So let’s get started. So to give people a little bit of background. I met Elisa at a Giant retreat and Giant puts on these. Uh, I don’t even know how to explain it. How would I explain this?
Elisa: 01:22 Leadership training retreats.
Davey: 01:24 Yeah. They do a leadership training program and it lasts over the course of a year and there’s four retreats and so when you go, you get put in different groups and so me and you were put into a group together and that’s when I met you for the first time and was able to, uh, to get to know you through the course of the year. And one thing I noticed really quickly was that, um, you were always so slow to speak, um, but every time you did speak a, you were super articulate. Um, and I always admired that about you and I think that anybody who’s been to a show-it united over the last two years, um, you’ve given, you know, an opening talk and uh, I think that’s something that other people realize right away is, that even that talk, it’s not super long, but it’s a jam-packed of just a good stuff even beyond that especially around personalities and personality tests and learning about oneself. You always seem to be able to take it that much deeper. So I’m excited to talk to you about all the different personality tests out there and pick your brain about a couple of things. I’ve always been bad about trying to make that kind of stuff practical in my life, so I’m excited to explore some of that stuff with you.
Elisa: 01:24 Yeah. Well thank you for that intro.
Davey: 03:00 So you are a co owner show it and you do a lot of this kind of stuff with the show at team, right? So kind of on a, maybe a monthly or quarterly basis, you meet with them and you kind of talk over, you know, personality types and stuff.
Elisa: 03:12 Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I think that personally, the personality stuff, I enjoy it most in terms of how it applies to relationships. So I think it has a lot of value for husbands and wives, to know for parents, to know about their kids, but that definitely translates to the workplace also. I think it has a lot of application in our office interactions and relationships and then even in terms of how people think about their job. And their role and how that kind of fits into the bigger picture of a company. It has a lot of application.
Davey: 03:48 How did you, how did you become interested in, in general? Because I feel like, uh, I mean it’s always interesting to learn a little bit about yourself and I always enjoyed going and taking the personality types, but you always seem to be able to take it deeper whatever we were learning that giant you always could, unless you understood the different nuances between the different personality types.
Elisa: 04:11 Yeah. Yeah. Well my parents have always really enjoyed these kinds of conversations and this topic. And I remember when I was in sixth grade, I took the myers-briggs personality test at school. They had us all do it, just kind of for fun. And that was the first time I’d ever heard about it. But when I brought my results home, my parents right away knew what I was talking about. And they both, they both knew their personality type. And so over the years we kind of would occasionally have conversations about this. So it had always sort of been on the periphery for me, like something I was familiar or vaguely familiar with for a long time and then I’m in the months leading up to going to giant for the first time. My husband and I had been talking about that a little bit more and I’m seeing the value possibly and sharing it with our team and kind of exploring it in the workplace too. So at that point I started studying it more in depth, but I feel like I’ve sort of grown up around conversations about personality and self assessment and my sister has always been very knowledgeable about this stuff too. So we’ve had a lot of fun conversations that I have a good friend who I actually do a podcast with. Um, we talked a lot about personality on there. It’s always been sort of a sort of a hobby of hers too. So I’ve just been around it. I’ve always enjoyed it.
Davey: 05:26 Yeah, we’ll definitely link to that in a podcast in the show notes. And a large part of that podcast is talking about, you know, personality types, signs of life. S I N E S of life and we’ll go into why here in a second. So what are, what are the kinds of things that you do with the show at team to help them work better together and relate better?
Elisa: 05:53 Yeah. Yeah. Well, the fact of the matter is most people struggle when it comes to self assessment. It’s not something that comes super easily, easily or naturally for, for most people. And so I think that one of the most valuable things about these personality tools is that it gives you sort of a framework for how to self-assess. And I think that’s so important in terms of being successful. And so with the team, we’ve just kind of taken the myers-briggs mostly. Um, we haven’t talked about the other personality tests over in that context, but with Myers-briggs we sort of look at each piece of personality and what that means and what that looks like. And like recently we’ve been breaking into groups and having conversations about what it means to be an introvert, what it means to be an extrovert and kind of having conversations with each other and helping each other understand what that looks like. And um, we’ve had a few conversations over the years or over the months about how that can apply, uh, these concepts even to marketing mindsets and things like that too. But, uh, yeah, like you said, once a month these days we’re getting together and just kind of looking at a different piece of that.
Davey: 07:09 Yeah, that’s awesome. So speaking of self awareness and self reporting, um, even with a personality test, one thing that I really struggle with is, uh, I think I project what I would rather be like so you get the scope on any given tests, I guess which one do you relate to the best or which one describes you the best? and I would love to be the early riser quick to work that that sort of guy. And so sometimes I find myself a little bit, maybe almost cheating, like just projecting like, Hey, I wish I was this person. You have any tips on like completing those kinds of tests a more accurately. One thing that I had Krista do was actually I had her take the test for me or we do this occasionally for, we’re into a couple of different ones, like the 16 personalities, one for Myers-brigg and then, um, uh, there’s a, there’s a couple others such as strength finders. So I’ve had her complete those for me before and it’s interesting to see what results she gets completing it for me versus the results that I get for myself.
Elisa: 07:09 Yeah. So have they been different?
Davey: 08:17 So, you know, for myers-briggs for instance, and I, and I love to spend some time talking about the letters and the distinction between them with you. I am an enfj when I take the test my self. When she takes it for me, I’m an ENFP. She is an istj. And that’s 100 percent. I believe that, so the, the discrepancies is between the j and the p for me. And I think maybe standing next to her, I’m definitely a p. um, but, uh, you know, I think if you were to ask like my friends, like when was in college and I was living with a bunch of other guys, I definitely behaved like a j.
Elisa: 09:04 For sure. What you’re describing about projecting who you want to be when you’re taking the test or even having different results depending on when you take it or who’s taking it, is really, really common. And speaking to what you just mentioned, the fact that she, she sees you as a p and you test as a j, which we can talk more about in a minute here, but anytime you’re comparing yourself against somebody who’s really strong and one of those letters, it can be easy to think, right. “I’m not that strong. So I must be the opposite”. But It’s a continuum. So you may fall very close to the middle where she may fall much further to one side. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re actually on the other side and in terms of projecting, I think going back to that idea that self assessment is hard. I think these tests really are most useful if you actually spend some time thinking about them and exploring what they mean because just taking a test and moving on– that’s not really getting into it deeply enough to understand what it all means. But I think the more you explore these ideas and the more you understand about them, the more accurately you can test. And so a lot of people will test one way in the beginning and then as they start to study it and learn a little bit more about it, they’ll go back and take a closer look at all of those letters and realize where maybe one or two of them were off. But that’s kind of a process. And sometimes it’s a or often it can be a really humbling process because like you said, you have a certain way that you would like to be. Uh, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect what your natural tendencies are.
Davey: 10:38 And I think through that process, it can be humbling at times, but it also can be, think relieving, just to realize, “OK, maybe this is why I act this way for better or worse”. And I knew that for Krista, who was able to join us for the last two retreats, she wasn’t there for all four of them, but my one regret there was that we didn’t get her signed up to go through that together because I think those last two were, she was starting to process this stuff too. And we can talk about it made a huge difference in our marriage and we made some adjustments to how we work together. But before we get too far into that, I’d love to spend some time here on the Myers-briggs test and I know there’s a ton of others out there and I do want to talk about a couple other fun ones with you as well. Um, but could you give us just an overview of the Myers Brigg test? And what the potential results could be.
Elisa: 11:34 Yeah, sure. If anyone’s looking for a good one to take–online tests aren’t always the most accurate. And yet the 16 personalities that come, which is the one that you just mentioned a minute ago is a pretty good one. So that’s a good starting place. If, uh, if someone hasn’t ever heard of this before and is interested in finding out what their type might be.
Davey: 11:59 And I feel like they have a lot of information around what the results are too.
Elisa: 12:03 right? Right. Yeah. So that’s a, that’s a pretty good starting point. Um, yeah. So with Myers-briggs, when you take that test, your results will come back with a four letter code for who you are actually 16 personality.com they tack on a fifth letter at the end. Um, they’re the only ones that do that and you don’t really have to worry too much about that fifth letter a, the four letters are the ones that are significant here. And the first letter will come back is either an “I” or an “E”, which is for introversion or extroversion. And those words are really familiar to people, I think right now, um, however, what they, mean maybe less so. Um, I think there’s sort of this general idea that introversion has to do with not really liking people are being social where extroversion has to do with, with always wanting to be sociable. And what it really comes down to isn’t about being a people person or not, but where you’re deriving your energy from. So an introvert and an extrovert can go to the same event or party and enjoy it just as much, but so that event or party is going to be draining the battery of the introvert where it’s going to be filling up the battery and the extrovert. So when it’s done, somebody who’s introverted is going to want to go home and decompress and have some alone time where the extrovert is going to be looking for the after party. So both, both people can enjoy social interactions, possibly just as much as each other, but while it’s filling one up, it’s draining the other. So introverts get their energy from being alone and extroverts get their energy from being with others.
Davey: 13:35 So where do you score on that?
Elisa: 13:37 I’m an introvert, although I do feel a little closer to the middle on it. But definitely an introvert.
Davey: 13:45 And 16 personalities if I remember correctly don’t they give you like a percentage from zero to a hundred essentially of where you fall within that letter and I think that’s super helpful to. And we’re not there yet, but Krista’s like a hundred percent “J”. And I mean even things like this getting ready for this interview today and I was just telling you it’s kind of rainy weather, and it’s kind of weather where you just want to curl up on the couch all day. Uh, but Krista was like, “You know, you’re gonna, get into those interviews and you’re going to immediately find some energy. And so I definitely think that E is the right letter for me. So I don’t think there’s any, any confusion there with what I am.
Elisa: 14:30 So, and this has some ramifications in the workplace, um, in terms of those workplace interactions because extroverts tend to be verbal processors that are pretty comfortable, um, talking through their ideas even before they’re entirely sure of themselves were introverts prefer to work through everything, um, in their own heads before piping up. And so when you have like group meetings and things like that, you may see a tendency for extroverts to kind of dominate the conversation and that’s a good thing to be aware of in those settings as to maybe provide the opportunity for introverts to speak first, and even allow some silences here and there and create that opportunity.
Davey: 14:30 For you and Todd, Todd’s an E right?
Elisa: 14:30 Yes
Davey: 15:12 Ok. So I don’t know if you guys find this, but it’s definitely true of uh, me and krista and I, I tend to be more of a dreamer of the two of us. And so I’ll just kind of spit things out. And like you said, it’s part of, it’s just processing part of is just, um, I know a lot of it to her probably just sounds like nonsense, but part of it’s just processing. And, and that can be overwhelming for her because she’s thinking like, oh, when he says when he comes up with an idea, she immediately takes it as me pitching it, whereas that might not be like necessarily pitching it and I’m just talking through it and a lot of times by the time, but by the time I get through it, you know, I’ve realized this is a ridiculous idea. We’re never going to do thIs. So that was, it was eye opening for us, just that she needs to sometimes let me talk through the idea completely. And likewise for her letting her get a word in. Do you find that with Todd at all.
Elisa: 16:16 Oh yes. And actually as we talk through each of these letters, he and I are opposite on every one of them, so we’re able to really kind of speak to both sides of all of these when it comes to the introversion, extroversion. He and I both just a little closer to the middle. Uh, so he’s less extroverted than some. And I’m less introverted than some, so we’re, we’re opposites on that line, but not actually too far apart in terms of our styles. But yes, we do have that same, that same experience for sure.
Davey: 16:45 yeah. And I actually, when I met for the first time thought he was an I and really, I got to know him through this same giant program that I got to know you at. But again, I think that just speaks to both of you in a, in purposefulness of speaking, you know, like you guys really think through the things that you say, uh, and I could probably take a lesson occasionally. So, but anyways, moving on to, uh, the next set of letter.
Elisa: 17:11 Yeah. So the next two are either going to be an “s” or an “n”. “S” is for sensing an “N” is for intuition. The, I was taken with introversion. So it’s intuition and that’s the “N”. And that has to do with– it’s referred to as our proceiving function. And it has to do with how you take information in. And so sensors take information in through their five senses. And intuitives take information and of course through their senses also, but there’s also sort of an element of gut instinct that intuitives are using also. And so sensors are looking at what things are and Intuitives are looking at things and thinking about what could be, and sensors tend to focus a little more on where we’ve come from and placing value on, on systems that are already in place, things that are already working and intuitives are trying to think a little more outside of the box and move us forward. There’s a little more innovation coming from intuitive and there’s a little more of holding on to tradition coming from sensors.
Davey: 18:13 How does that play out in, uh, in the workspace?
Elisa: 18:16 yeah. So this is an interesting one because there’s a discrepancy. A percentage discrepancy on this one. With the others the population is divided pretty evenly, like introverts and extroverts are about 50 50 in a population . But with sensing and intuition seventy percent of people are sensors and only 30 percent are intuitives. This is interesting because if you think about marketing, most marketing, this is really geared towards pointing towards the future. And wanting to help people think outside of the box, um, but when you recognize it, 70 percent of the population are sensors, that means there’s a majority of people who are kind of comfortable with the way things are or the way things have been or are maybe a little bit resistant to change. And so that comes, I mean certainly there’s the element of the interpersonal relationships in the workplace also, but I think this one is really interesting when it comes to thinking about branding and marketing because you have to think about how, how it’s going to reflect who you are, but then also the audience that you’re trying to appeal to. Um, and recognizing that sometimes as marketers with the product, you have to be helping people be willing to embrace that kind of change and not force it or make it feel scary, you know?
Davey: 19:34 Yeah. Do you find in the, uh, in the show-it office specifically, like what’s the, is the breakdown about 70, 30? do you find that there’s more sensors than there are intuitives? I’m just thinking of like, uh, what the jobs require. I mean, the programming for example. And I feel like Krista has that similar mind, you know, she’s definitely an “S”, for sure. So how does that look in the show-it office?
Elisa: 20:02 Well, strangely we actually just were looking at a statistic a couple of weeks ago and we’re flipped in the at office. We have a higher percentage of intuitions and the office than sensors, but that’s really unusual. And we were kind of debating why that may be. I mean, it’s possible that there are people in our office who have missed typed and are actually s”” that’s possible. It’s also possible that it’s the industry that we’re in and it’s drawn people who love technology and are excited about, you know, where the software is headed, you know, that we may be attracting people that are kind of out of the box thinkers. So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s flipped in our office, and I think you may see that in different industries also, but in the population at large, it’s a 70, 30.
Davey: 20:52 huh, And is there a discrepancy between male and female as far as the breakdown?
Elisa: 20:58 Not on this one.
Davey: 21:02 What about money? I would think that somebody who’s managing money a is more of an “s” instead of an “n”.
Elisa: 21:11 Yeah. In fact, the, the gal who takes care of that for, uh, for us at show-it is also an istj like your wife and takes care of the money. That’s the perfect personality, looking at budgets and things like that.
Davey: 21:25 Yeah. Because I’m getting sold on, you know, the marketing that’s being put in front of me all the time and I have krista to reel me in.
Elisa: 21:33 So yeah, well that’s a great example of how to balance because you’ve got, you know, in your case you have, you who is excited about possibilities and sort of moving forward. And she’s the one who’s wisely pulling the reigns and at times, and in a company you really need both. You need the out of the box thinkers and the ones who are making sure that everything’s done wisely.
Davey: 21:55 Yeah, for sure. Moving on to the next letters so we have (fade out)……hey friends. We’re going to take a quick 60 second break so I can introduce you to one of my favorite companies and the sponsor of this episode: Show it. Show-it is a drag and drop website building platform created especially for photographers and creative entrepreneurs. It’s used by some of the biggest names in the creative industry from Amy and Jordan Demos to Kaitlin James, and it’s what we built our website on too. What’s awesome about show-it is that it’s both powerful and easy to use. The intuitively designed website builder makes it easy to change colors, fonts, images, and objects. Finally, a website, you can update it on your own without having to hire a designer for every tiny change. It’s google friendly and you can design the desktop and mobile versions of your website side by side to ensure your website looks great on any device and you can even integrate a wordpress blog with your show at website became that much more powerful and guess what? They have tons of free and premium professionally designed website templates to help you get started, but what makes show-it such a special company is their customer support. They’re super responsive And are there to help every step of the way. You can even save 10 percent on an annual subscrIption by using the code btb show. For more information, check out the show notes and now back to our episode. (fade in) Yeah, for sure. Moving on to the next letter, so we have “E” versus “I”, “S” versus “N”. Now we have “F” versus “T”.
Elisa: 23:28 And this is feeling versus thinking. And I hate those words because it feels like, haha, “it feels like”, if you’re not a thinker, that makes it sound like you’re not a thinker. It doesn’t mean that feelers aren’t capable of thinking, but feeling and thinking is called our judging function and it has to do with how you make decisions and so it, it really in a nutshell comes down to an ability to detach or not. And so a thinker can hold ideas off to the side of them and people can shoot holes in that idea and it doesn’t impacted them personally because that idea is held safely out to the sides. So if you don’t like the idea, it doesn’t reflect poorly on them. It doesn’t mean you don’t like them. It just means you don’t like the idea and they’re able to look objectively at that idea and decide whether or not to salvage it or to ok ditch it and move on. Thinkers are able to detach in terms of their own, like how things reflect on them personally and they’re also able to detach in terms of how things are going to affect others. Not that they don’t take that into consideration, but their thought process is more logical based, more on data and statistics and logic. And so they’re able to look at things a little more objectively. Meanwhile, feelers are much less detached. That’s, that’s more of a difficulty for feelers. And so where the thinker has that idea safely out to the side of them, Feelers hold it right in front of their heart. And so if you attack a feelers idea, it feels to them as though you’re attacking, attacking them because they attach their ideas to their identity. And so in terms of how things reflect themselves, um, they are not detached. They’re attached and in terms of how things affect other people also, they may very well be logical in their thought processes also, but they are taking into account how other people are going to feel about the decision and how it’s going to impact other people. They’re much more aware of the personnel impacts where thinkers are focused more on whether something actually makes sense.
Davey: 25:41 So where do you fall on the last two?
Elisa: 25:47 Um, so I’m a feeler and that was a harder one. Like I would like to be a thinker.
Davey: 25:53 Me too, because I think again, the thing about feelers holding the ideas close to their heart, you know, definitely sums me up I think. I would love to be able to take things less personally.
Elisa: 26:08 Right? Me too, and I’ve grown in that I can stay detached for much longer now than I used to be able to, but there always comes a point in any conversation that feels, you know, touchy in some way where I start to take things personally and I try not to, but it’s, well, it’s hard.
Davey: 26:26 I think it’s definitely harder. I think I’d probably score pretty high as far as color goes. Yeah. And I always, you know, sometimes I lament that too Krista. I wish that I wish that um, nurture, you know, a lot of this is nature versus nurture. I, you know, I wish I could nurture that, that “t” a little bit more.
Elisa: 26:48 I feel that too. You know, one way that people talk about all of these dichotomies there called, the two letters in each category, is comparing it to being right handed or left handed. I’m actually, I’m glad you just said nurture versus nature because the theory behind myers-briggs is that this is part of our nature. We’re born with it just as we’re born to be right-handed or left-handed. But our nurture effects quite a bit. And, um, going back to the right-handed left-handed thing, I will always be right handed, but I can do things to strengthen my left hand. And so it’s not that I am all right handed all the time. I’m not all feeler all the time. I can do things to strengthen that left-hand, the thinking side, but, um, it’s not going to change the fact that I am a right-handed person.
Davey: 27:34 Yeah, for sure. And for Krista and I that’s probably one of the biggest things I think we’ve had to work through working together on a daily basis. I mean also just being married, right? Because even if we didn’t work together, we’re going to see each other often. Um, but again, I mean as an extrovert and as just kind of processing ideas verbally and throwing things out there, uh, you know, as I come across them or learn them or whatnot or come up with them. Um, again, krista is kind of, she’ll, she’ll start asking me questions about them, you know, and she’s not, she’s just trying to almost, she’s vetting the idea essentially, you know, she’s wondering, ok, is this a um, is this something we can actually implement or not? And I’ll take that as a personal attack and part of it is again, it’s just that distinction between her needing to give me a little bit of time to process that stuff verbally before piling on a million different questions about whether that’s a good idea or not. So that’s been something that we’ve had to work through. Where does, um, so where do you fall on “s” versus “n”
Davey: 28:52 Ok, so you are “I s f” so far. And then I am “e n f”. I think if there is one letter though that I wish I could change, it would be that one. I feel like I don’t care as much about the other letters that’s the one I wish that I could switch a little bit, but oh well. Again what’s the breakdown look like in the office and what are some of the ramifications for working with others who are the opposite of you?
Elisa: 29:17 Again, in our office are the statistics are a little surprising. We have a higher number of “F”‘s than I would anticipate especially um, you had asked about gender breakdown and on this one thinking versus feeling the population at large is divided 50 50, but 70 percent of women are feelers and only 30 percent are thinkers and then it switched for men. Seventy percent of men are and 30 percent are feelers. And so we, we have a higher percentage of men in the show-it office. And so it’s kind of surprising that we have a higher percentage of feelers also. And I’m not really sure why that is
Davey: 29:58 I’m assuming that has to do at least a little bit to do with the industry. I think the industry is predominantly women. It would make sense for a company like show-it, that does really well and serves that community really well to be more in jive I guess?
Elisa: 30:16 So if you look at our support team, they have to understand all the technology and stuff and yet the majority of support is interpersonal and they’re interacting with people all day, everyday and that, that “F” is able to sort of help create connections.
Davey: 30:33 So I’m sure that’s a huge strengthnfor the team or to a certain extent also maybe hard for us. I mean I could imagine and also being a little hard for support too– taking ideas personally and things like that, especially when you have a frustrated, uh, if you have a frustrating client or customer. But I’m moving on to now “j” versus “p”. So like I said I test as a “j”. Krista still, to this day, swears that I’m a “p”, I’m not quite as organized as her, but if it were up to me to clean the house I would do that once a week probably. Whereas Krista wants to– before we had a Rumba which is obviously greatest invention of all time because Krista would vacuum every single day. We don’t do that because we have a rumba now. But like I’m just happy like vacuuming once or twice a week but she would want a vacuum every single day. You know, I kind of know where everything is on my desk here, but it’s not as necessarily clean as her desk is.
Elisa: 31:51 So you’re talking about your physical environment, which is a big part of the state versus fee thing. And that’s the way that it’s most apparent. J and p for judging and perceiving. And it has to do with how we order our worlds. Whether or not we like things to be decided and structured or whether we like things to be open. And there’s more adaptability coming from ps and more structure coming from j’s and so we see that most in our environments and so what you’re describing about Krista loving for things to be tidy and clean and I didn’t super resonate with that except I have four boys and it’s getting harder and harder to keep things clean. But um, there’s also an element of scheduling too and so for some j’s can let some things go in their environment as long as they kind of know what to expect in their day. So if there day is scheduled, then maybe they’re ok with a little clutter in their environment and for “P’s” they may have a clean home but they really want to stay adaptable and their schedules and reserve the right or the ability to be spontaneous. And so, um, you’ll see that both in scheduling and environment and it may show more in one way or the other.
Davey: 33:09 Is there any a gender difference here?
Elisa: 33:13 No, no, this is 50 50 across the board.
Davey: 33:20 Again, I think maybe it has to do with my environment too. In college I was definitely the “j” of the group the house being crazy drove me nuts. I would have a schedule every day in terms of like when I did my studying and when I was at class and so on and so forth. Um, and then living with Krista maybe I think part of it is just because I know she’s going to do certain things and so maybe I personally let some of those things go. So that could be it as well. But I do think I am pretty– I stand firm against Krista when she argues that I’m actually a “P”, but it’s probably close. I’d probably test pretty close to the middle there.
Elisa: 34:05 I would say on the, on this one, um, I don’t have the statistics to back this up, but it’s my opinion that this one we’re kind of, we see more changes with this one maybe than with any of the others because I’m like, some people have a job that requires one or the other, like maybe somebody is very much a p, but they work at a job that requires them to be very structured and so they’re operating as a J from nine to five every day, um, or maybe they’re a J , but they have a job that’s kind of always keeping them on their toes. And so they’re operating as a p from nine to five. And I think if you see business partners working together or in a case of husband and wife, I’m like what you just said, if you have to, J’s one may relax a little bit to, to take more of the spontaneous role or if you have two Ps one may become more structured because they realize that somebody has to be to keep life running smoothly. Um, and so I think a lot of people spend a lot of time behaving maybe slightly out of their type on this one for one reason or another.
Davey: 35:11 Yeah. And that makes total sense. And I think when we were going through that program together, there were a couple business partners there and one, it seemed like all the time would be active even if they were two Ps, let’s say one would be acting as the j just to keep this, you know, running and successful and moving forward and that really makes sense. So each of these four letters, um, yeah, so like for 16 personalities for instance, will spit out like campaigner or the protagonist and I think that’s, is that made up by 16 personalities
Elisa: 35:43 every website, every book, they all come up with their own names.
Davey: 35:48 Yeah. And then it can kind of give you the general gist of that specific personality type. And so we don’t have time to talk about every single combination of each. Just to review, so you were I, S, F J. Ok, cool. And what’s Todd just out of curiosity.?
Elisa: 35:48 He’s ENTP.
Davey: 36:14 ENTP So across the board opposite! Pretty much the same for Krista and I, Krista being an I S T J. J is the only similarity even though it was contested. So, um, is there anything in particular that’s come up in the show at office, like ramifications of working through this kind of stuff together.
Elisa: 36:40 I know for a fact because I’ve had conversations like one on one conversations with a few people where I know that this has been beneficial in terms of, uh, understanding coworkers and kind of creating some smoothness and communication and even just understanding why they’re so different in the way that they operate or the way they make decisions and think through things. And so I know that there’s at least been some relational benefit to this.
Davey: 37:07 Yeah. And I think that’s huge actually going through this stuff because we can make assumptions about one another. And that was one of the rules while we’re at this leadership program was don’t assume somebody else’s personality type because you’re often wrong. But actually sitting down and working through this stuff together, um, you know, I think it opens you up to do other people and so other people can see more clearly both blind spots for themselves, but then also how they need to communicate or interact with people around them. And for many people listening, they’re probably not working within a team as big as a show it. But I know personally just for Krista and I, and I think even regardless of whether we were working together full time as a husband, wife, team, that would have been, um, you know, we would have benefited a, we’re just from doing this for our own marriage.
Elisa: 37:07 Oh yeah
Davey: 38:05 So, there’s a million other tests out there. First of all, I guess which ones are research, which ones are not? Because every I have friends who are in the, uh, into the indium? enium graham?
Elisa: 38:05 The enneagram
Davey: 38:18 ok. Yeah. And I can never pronounce it, so I’m not going to even try to announce it again during the show. But for instance, that one like, like, which one’s out there actually have some research kind of backing up a they’re testing methods and, and so on. Are there other ones?
Elisa: 38:39 Yeah. I mean I think that’s kind of a um, debated because I saw an article recently from a psychologist who was saying that myers-briggs just has no substantial psychological backing for it. But then you can read plenty of other things that will site many studies. And I mean I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so I don’t know, you know, I’m not sure how they would describe one study over another is having more validity or not. But most people out there who are supporters of one of these methods for typing personality will say that they’ve got plenty of research to support it. And other people will say that it’s garbage. The enneagram for instance, has been around for at least a couple thousand years. And so it has a lot of history to it and a lot of anecdotals support, but I don’t think it has a whole lot of research behind it even though it’s been around so long. Same with the four temperaments that goes back to, what was it, the fifth century bc. Hippocrates was the one that is sanguine, choleric, like maddick, those four temperaments. Um, so they’ve been around a really long time. Yeah.
Davey: 39:53 That specific one is something you become interested in recently. Right.
Elisa: 39:57 Um, the four temperaments, I actually haven’t spent a lot of time looking at that one. I mean, it, it’s a little more basic I would say. And um, it’s, I’ve sort of been vaguely aware of it all along, but I haven’t spent a whole lot of time looking at it. I think the strength finders book, um, and the strength finders program, they definitely have a lot of research and statistics, again, maybe not psychological, but at least in terms of polling people and observing people and they’ve got a lot of statistics backing
Davey: 40:35 And I know that for a lot of companies out there they provide that test for their employees. I know that Krista, when she first got to college, she was working for a non-profit, a big non-profit, and they, uh, they had everybody take the strength finders and go through that side. So that’s something that she’s had me go through since. So which ones are your favorite?
Elisa: 40:55 I like it because I feel like it explains a lot about who we are and how we operate, but still leaves lots of room for nuance. I mean you can try to get very much more specific and some try to stay much more vague. I feel like this, I feel like myers briggs is specific enough to be useful without being so specific as to be confining. So you can have, so I’m an i s f j. You can have another i s f j who’s maybe a little more melancholy or something. Those are certain things that other tests might try to add in as further identifiers. But myers-briggs of leaves room for those kinds of nuances within each personality type. Um, so that’s, that’s why I like it. And also the theory that it can’t, that it doesn’t change, that it’s part of how you’re wired. I agree with that theory we’re born with not as blank slates but wired to be a particular way. So myers-briggs is for sure my favorite. I have enjoyed reading about the enneagram recently and there’s different opinions about the enneagram in terms of whether it pairs well with myers-briggs or not. I happen to think it’s a useful supplement. For instance, my son, my oldest son who’s 13, is a very different personality type from me in terms of myers-briggs. He’s an i n t p, but I suspect that he and I are the same number on the enneagram, which to me explains why he and I are similar in a lot of ways, even though our personalities are actually quite different. So I think it’s useful for that.
Davey: 42:37 Is there somewhere people can take the enneagram online? Did I say that right?
Elisa: 42:39 Yeah. I think I might have sent you a link to one of them. I don’t feel like there’s a, there are any like, excellent online enneagram tests at this point. Um, it’s probably a little more helpful to just read about each of them and sort of self assess. But uh, that one that I sent you is a pretty decent one.
Davey: 42:59 All right, so I’ll include information about that for sure. In the show notes if you will get to that. And with that test, right? There’s a main number and then there’s like a wing or something.
Elisa: 43:11 Ha ha so there’s nine numbers. You have your main number and then they’re written out in a circle, one through nine, and so every number has a number on either side of it. So I’m a nine. Uh, the number on either side for me is an eight and a one. And so for every number you lean one way or the other to sort of, um, add some depth to it. So like, as a nine I don’t lean toward the eight I lean towards the one. But then you also have other numbers that you go to you and stress and other numbers that you’d go to and health and it starts to get confusing if you’re not, if you’re not paying close attention.
Davey: 43:51 So you had mentioned that you and your son, you share, um, different personality types, but you probably share the same number on the enneagram. So how has that helped you, um, maybe relate better to your son or understand him a little bit more?
Elisa: 44:09 Uh, well, so I said that he’s an I n t p which are known for being much more introverted than some. They tend to be the most introverted of the introverts, a very analytical. They’re observers there, scientist types or that’s sort of a stereotype about them. Um, and he is analytical. He is all those things, but he also has a very good sense for how other people are feeling. He’s very compassionate. And i n t p’s aren’t necessarily always the most relational of the personality types. And I wouldn’t say that he is super duper relational, but he’s, he definitely has a lot of empathy. Um, and I’m a nine on the enneagram, which is a peacemaker and if he’s a nine also, which I think that he is, that would kind of make sense that it has as a peacemaker, as a nine on the enneagram, he would sort of use that analytical side to be observing people and wanting to create peace between people. Um, so his, his analysis of things is logic isn’t necessarily geared towards, you know, scientific things or projects like that, but maybe geared a little more towards people.
Davey: 45:31 And, and that’s interesting because I think, again, I’m just talking about how some of these other tests can round out the myers-briggs test for instance. Like that might be an insight that you skip over or don’t realize just going off of the myers brigg test where the stereotype for his personality is more scientific, which when you describe that, that personality type, it doesn’t exactly scream empathy, you know, but it turns out he has a ton of it. So, uh, as far as personality types go, um, and maybe it’s because myers-briggs is just everywhere it just seems to me like one of those things that’s been developed at least in modern times and with modern research and so on and so forth. If you started there and you really wanted to learn a little bit more about yourself and the practical implication and whatever pipe practical implications which personality tests would you recommend?
Elisa: 46:29 after taking myers-briggs? Probably strength finders or enneagram.
Davey: 46:36 Ok. And uh, what about chronotypes?
Elisa: 46:40 Well, that was new for me. I just came across it recently and I think it’s really interesting, but I don’t have a whole lot of insight to add to it. But yeah, chronotypes has, has to do with time. It has to do with when you’re at your best and when you’re at your worst and there’s a fun quiz online called the power of one quiz and it lets you know what your sleep schedule is like, whether your son who is up early in the morning raring to go, or somebody who likes to stay up late and get things done until the wee hours or somebody who needs a lot of sleep or has fitful sleep. Um, so it starts with how you sleep and then kind of builds out the schedule of your day based on what your sleep style is like. So the best times of day to have coffee or the best times a day to schedule meetings or the best times of day to exercise based on what your chronotype
Davey: 47:30 is. Yeah, I think that stuff especially has been a fascinating learning about my personality and Krista’s personality and how to work together. It was a huge eye-opener. But lately we’ve been talking a little bit more about chronotypes. Daniel Pink wrote a great book that’s fairly new called When, The Science of TIme, I think that’s the subtitle. I’ll link to it in the, in the show notes, but he talks a little bit about chronotypes and he talks about it in terms of being a lark or an owl. He has a test that he links to, um, and it’s a little bit different. I liked, the one that you link to because I feel like maybe it’s a little bit more developed and each result is named after an animal which I thought was super fun, but I think it’s just eye opening in terms of like actually scheduling your day. Um, and for somebody who runs their own business, you know, so if you’re working for yourself, I think it’d be especially valuable because, um, you know, like you can, you can set up your day so that you’re, when you’re most productive is when you’re doing your biggest and hardest tasks for the day. um, so I’ve found that one super interesting in particular, especially for somebody who runs their own business. Do you remember your result for that one? do you do you remember?
Elisa: 47:30 A Lion
Davey: 47:30 Can you give a little background around being a lion.
Elisa: 49:03 So in terms of the sleep schedule is one who tends to be up earlier in the morning and then gets that a little bit earlier, which is accurate. He was sharing the, the guy who developed that, that quiz and that book, he was sharing some observations as a sleep therapist that he had gained from talking to sleep patients over the years for people who are lions. They also have a tendency to be sort of type a go getter type. And uh, the way he described it was an extreme enough terms that I didn’t feel like I really fell into that category. And yet the way he broke down the daily schedule, I definitely related to, as I looked at where he had placed things in a day for lion types, definitely made sense. And so the way he extrapolated personality from that didn’t strike quite as close to home for me, but the actual scheduling component of it did.
Davey: 50:03 I think the same was pretty much true of me. I think I identified less with liKe kind of the anecdotal stuff that included around the results and more with, um, the daily schedule and when to do things. I even came across an article and my result was a bear. And um, he had put together for the person who’s readIng this article, who was also a bear, an Ideal schedule for her so was interesting reading through that article and seeing what he recommended, the activities that you do at certain times during the day. And that was something that I really identified with. But I think what’s interesting about going down the rabbit hole of personality types is even as you come across, um, maybe something like the enneagram, which, you know, who knows how much like scientific evidence necessarily research backs up, um, kind of the results that you see. I think there’s still value in kind of processing this stuff, you know, just becoming a little more self aware so that you can understand your own blind spots and relate to others better
Elisa: 51:11 There’s a book about the enneagram called the road back to you. And in the introduction to that Ian Cron was saying he was sort of defending the enneagram against those who would say it doesn’t have enough scientific backing. And he said that his concern isn’t so much about whether it’s all been scientifically validated so much as whether it’s useful and he believes very strongly that it’s useful and so he wants to, he wants to keep sharing about it and helping people with it.
Davey: 51:37 YeAh, that makes sense. Especially for somebody that’s been around for as long as It’s been around, if it wasn’t useful it wouldn’t have stood the test of time for sure. All right. So one of my favorite extensions of, um, the myers brigg test. And this is what was one of my favorite parts of the leadership program. And this is their language, I think, right. I’m giants language, it’s the five voices and the voices are a, let me see if I can remember these, a pioneer, creative connector, nurture and guardian. And so depending on what your personality type is, generally one of those five voices correspond with your personality type. But like I said, there’s um, and like you mentioned earlier, you know, it’s like being right-handed, left-handed. You probably have all five voices, but a couple of them were more dominant than the others. And again, just one of those, one of those things, and this is a book that you can go check out. I’m Krista is a guardian. She is somebody that stereotypically tends to be a little bit better with, uh, with money, she asks those hard questions. So when I come up with an idea she’s going to ask those questions and kind of vet that out before ever, like really committing to it and getting it before she gets excited about it. Um, whereas I tend to be a pioneer. For better or worse I sometimes tend to be the loudest voice in the room and kind of always pushing us forward. So where do you, where would you fall in those five voices?
Elisa: 53:05 I am a nurturer. That’s my first one and guardian is second for me. And um, they base that around what your middle two letters are of your myers-briggs personality type, which as a side note is my favorite way to sort of a group personality types together. There’s some different theories on the best way to kind of group them together. But I think personalities that share the middle two letters tends to be the most similar to each other. Not always of course, but, um, you definitely see some, some patterns there. And so generally speaking, other people with S F in the middle are nurturers like me. It may depend what second, but in my case, guardian is second. So nurturing is caring for people and making sure that people in relationships are running smoothly. Guardian is making sure that systems are running smoothly.
Davey: 54:01 That makes sense that Krista would be a Guardian. She’s a s, t, but her second one is a nurturer and you know, it’s funny I think she’s actually kind of surprised getting that but it didn’t surprise me at all. I mean, she’s always, you know, just in different ways, uh, maybe a different way than the stereotypical way of just looking out for somebody. But if somebody tells her– for hosting somebody, she can remember things in conversations, you know, years before that they mentioned and shall account for those things whether it be like a food allergy or like, “oh, I remember they really liked this meal”, you know, things that I would just have never remembered. Um, but yeah, so this stuff is, all the stuff is all super interesting. Now. If we wanted to learn more and explore more of this kind of stuff, where should we go?
Elisa: 54:46 You can check out sines or sines of life on itunes and like you said earlier, it’s s I n e s sines of life, which has sort of an inside personality joke the way we came up with that title. But we talk all about personality there. And we will frequently reference other resources as well on our podcast. But uh, yeah, my friend and I and we just explorer personality and the ramifications of understanding who you are and how you’re wired
Davey: 55:18 and somebody else that people should visit is a elisajoyful.com for sure. Um, you also already a very talented writer and even a lot of the things that you write about, um, wouldn’t necessarIly be things that I am like by nature drawn to, you know, a lot of which right about is, is motherhood and being a um, and fostering, you know, different anecdotes there. But I really enjoy it. So I just speaks to how I think about you as a writer, you should totally check out a elisa joyful.com and I will also link to the other places that people will find you.
Elisa: 55:18 Great thank you!
Davey: 56:04 All right, well thanks for listening to the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on itunes and leaving a review. So the others are more likely to find it for show notes and other resources. Visit daveyandkrista.com
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